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What's the better Industrial Zone Replacement?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AaronTBD, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. AaronTBD

    AaronTBD Warlord

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    Is it the Oppidum or the Hansa?
     
  2. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Hansa of course.

    Oppidum does not get bonus from Aq or Dam. It gets +2 from quarries but we usually harvest stones and place a mine on it(especially for Gaul). Marbles & Gypsum work but there's not many of them.

    It actually is even worse than England or Roman IZs as these Civs are good at building dams/aqs.
     
  3. japanesesamurai

    japanesesamurai Prince

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    The +1 from ALL resources + other adjecencies makes the hansa way better to achieve a victory with.
    The Oppidum comes a bit earlier and gives an extra ranged attack and while that is certainly fun and giggles, it doesn’t make you win faster/easier. By the time you have these built + walls + encampents, the early aggressive AI shouldn’t be a problem anymore.
    I think Gauls should have a 100-150% discount on all level of walls. With it, the Oppidum should give 1 iron / turn if placed on a hill
     
  4. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Oppidum is more of an encampment/IZ hybrid than an IZ replacement, and getting a 5 or more production on the hansa isn't difficult as long as you are ok making the markets too
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Only thin Oppidum is good at is getting GE earlier for something like appeal but would damage a CV rush by taking a district place.
    I guess also the 3 workshop eureka so may be useful for an SV, yet to try
     
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  6. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    This, and I don't understand why. Especially annoying since with the Gaul you have the first ring around your city centre where you can't put speciality districts but aquaducts and dams are allowed. Would have been a nice synergy, hill starts are harder to get housing early on.

    I have a bit of a hard time with that district rule. Maybe I'm just too used to building compact cities.
     
  7. AaronTBD

    AaronTBD Warlord

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    Alright it seemed obvious that the Hansa is better.


    You have to admit the Oppidum looks cool though
     
  8. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    The Hansa is probably better, but Gaul is better with the Oppidum because of their start bias.

    Also, because the Oppidum is earlier you can get it up and build Macchu Picchu faster, which makes gives you more flexibility for placing Oppidums and other districts.
     
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  9. Dantesedge

    Dantesedge Chieftain

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    The Hansa is much easier to plan in advance and get powerful yields from plentiful resources and district placement. It is easily the more powerful of the two.

    However, I find the Oppidum more interesting to play with. That and the early Apprenticeship which adds +1 to all mines in your empire - which are plentiful with Gaul - one era early is quite nice.
     
  10. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I think the Hansa is probably better in the long run, but the Oppidum does have some advantages:
    • Major adjacency from strategic resources. You don't even need to improve them, just reveal them, and the adjacency is available. This means you get more turns of production overall. In my Gaul game, most of my Oppidum adjacencies came from these, followed by mines, with quarry adjacencies firmly in third place.
    • Available one era earlier
    • Unlocks Apprenticeship, giving all your mines +1 production, almost 1 era earlier
    • Basically gives you half an Encampment for free
    My impression may be somewhat influenced by playing on Epic speed. All those extra turns I don't have to wait for Apprenticeship to get access to the IZ and better mines, not having to wait for Aqueducts and Dams to be constructed to get the adjacencies, may seem more valuable to me than to those who play on quicker game speeds.
     
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  11. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Likely Hansa. A +12 (or even more) Hansa is not unthinkable but a +12 Oppidum needs extreme luck.

    One thing Oppidum excels is that they are online early and they gain the full power early (you only need to place the district, don't need build other districts).
     
  12. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Prince

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    That's what I'm curious about. My timing is rarely there to get 3 Workshops done in time for the Eureka, and that's a lot of Beakers.

    Gauls are aggravating me with my Government Plaza and Diplomatic Center so very much though!
     
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  13. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    I don't think it's so much about what the final max yields are but rather what the average yields are throughout the course of the game.

    Putting up an aqueduct and a dam and possibly even a commercial hub and a canal that you may otherwise not have even bothered with just to get an extra +2 production each out of a Hansa is a significant investment requiring a lot of planning and comes at the opportunity cost of anything else you could have spent those hammers on.

    Consider not only that, as mentioned, Oppidum comes to its max power quickly (requiring only building quarries... strategic resources don't even need improvements, and both provide major +2 adjacency), but that building one unlocks Apprenticeship to immediately give your mines +1 production as well, many turns in advance of anyone else getting Apprenticeship.

    Also Oppidum is a direct, 3 tech path Mining > Bronze > Iron all easy to boost by Gaul (Gaestae slaughter barb encampments and Gaul has a bias for terrain (hills) that would favor an Iron spawn). You may want to get Animal Husbandry to reveal horses as well before placing Oppidum so that's a bit more time to get your Eurekas and rounds out the first Oppidum at 4 techs and the following ones at 5 (since the 1st one unlocks Apprenticeship).

    Thus you can start spamming cheap Oppidums as your first district in every city with minimal planning and effort, and maximum adjacency. The cost scaling is low due to minimal tech research and spamming them will help achieve discounts on whatever districts you follow up with (holy sites, campus, etc).

    On the flip, Hansas require 6 techs minimum to reach Apprenticeship and necessarily unlock Campus and Commercial Hub along the way, hampering your discount mechanism. You can't get as many Hansas out as early as Oppidums or at as high an early adjacency (necessitating likely at least commercial hubs and aqueducts to match an Oppidum).

    I expect if you take into consideration the earlier and cheaper Oppidum with higher earlier adjacency at lower overall cost compared to the later, more expensive Hansa with higher later adjacency at much higher overall cost that Oppidum may in fact give a better advantage long term if not at least a lot closer to a neck-and-neck comparison than most people are thinking.
     
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  14. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    Oppidum can be better especially if you are going for fast win or if you are playing on highlands map. You get it earlier, you get the adj. bonuses very easily or instant, you dont need other districts to get the production. It just takes very long to get those Hansas to those +10 production levels.

    To get most out of Hansas you need to build half-price Hansas, full price commercial hubs, full price aqueducts etc. With oppidium you only need to know where your strategic resources, hills and quarry resources are and then just plant your half price district.
     
  15. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    The problem with Gaul as a whole in the IZ game is you cannot build compact city clusters and optimize your terrain due to no districts in the first ring. So it’s not going to be 1 Oppidum vs 1 Hansa, it’s going to be more 3 oppidum vs 4 Hansas.
    Look at the distribution of strategics and quarries on the map some time. Suppose you find a nice pair of iron mines next to each other and wow, even a stone quarry there so you can get 2 +7’s and a +5 if you triangulate 3 cities around that spot. You have just sacrificed 18 tiles to not being able to hold districts and lord help you if this positioning means forgoing fresh water somewhere.

    That’s the core problem- I also need to think about good campus sites, fresh water, getting EC coverage, and some CHs ideally on rivers. But Oppidum sites are locked in by the map. Something will have to give.

    However, I know I can bolt together some kickass Hansas literally anywhere with open space in a very compact way.
     
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  16. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    I like the Industrial Zone. Contrary to other districts (except Theatre Square), the Industrial Zone gains more from city planning than ressource distribution. You gain satisfaction when you pull off a good Industrial Zone, like a City-Center / Harbor / Commercial Hub triangle, even more when you add Reyna with Harbomaster in the city.
    They still have the ability to exploit ressource distribution, but in case there is nothing, you can still build the adjacency.

    The German might lose the Quarry, but since you can only put a Quarry over a Ressource, and all Ressources are giving standard adjacency, you are not losing anything. The adjacency kicks even earlier since you do not need to improve it to enjoy the adjacency! In fact, they only lose the minor adjacency from Mines and the Lumber Mills but gain a major one with Commercial Hub, and a standard one for all ressources (even Bonus and Luxury). In the end, Hansa might be a little more RNG, the odds of being worst than Industrial Zone is really slim. You really need to play on a New (world age), Sparse (ressources) and Wet (rainfall) maps to increase the odds of Hills without ressource and Lumber Mills.
    In the end, the German have the better of both world: they can build the adjacency and take advantage of the ressource distribution.

    The Oppidum is now only dependant to ressource distribution. This means they can never build up their bonus by other means, contrary to standard Industrial Zone and Hansa. Furthermore, Strategic Ressources are hidden, so you need to reveal Horses and Iron fast to make sure you put the Oppidum accordingly (and pray for Niter / Coal... to magically appears next to them), while the Stone, Marbles and Gypsum ressources are really scarce (Marble and Gypsum are luxury ressources, so rely on the continent system, while Stone isn't common).
    Contrary to the Industrial Zone, the Oppidum has situational adjacencies and nothing to rely on boosting the adjacency when no Quarry or Strategic Ressource are available. In the end, I am almost wishing for a Standard adjacency for Mines.
    But the Oppidum is potent: its strength is not about how powerful it can be but how early it kicks and how you from there. After all, it is still a half cost district that can yields some decent Production, give you protection against early agression and prevent easy Pillage (no Science for invaders).

    In the end, Oppidum is okay. It feels like a "wide-play" district where you build it when you have some lucky city, and this is where it shines the most. But as a Builder-type player, I can't hide my frustration that some of my Oppidum will be with low adjacency (or none).


    The Hansa is better than the Oppidum, but not as much as I initially thougth. They do not have the same use:
    • Hansa and Germany are the Production powerhouse that synergise well, thanks to the free district ability. Hansa allows to gain even more Production than the standard Industrial Zone, at half cost, but come "late".
    • Oppidum and Gaul are the early Productive civilization that gain an early advantage, but due to the Gallic ability with districts limitation, there is some drawbacks. All depends if you manage to enjoy that early Production to snowball, since the Oppidum advantage is short-lived. At least, it gives some defense in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  17. EthiOPia

    EthiOPia Chieftain

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    Hansa provides much better production compared to Oppidum. Oppidum is on average beatwen (3-7) production so probably even lower than normal iz. However you can build them earlier, dont need to build dams and aqueducts, also since you have acces to them earlier production of oppidum is cheaper because you have less techs and civics. I think Gauls excelerate at medival conquest and it is their timing to take nearby lands, and thats why i think oppidum is better than hansa because it gives ability to build production district with workshops and then crosbowamns or some other units, where you cant do that in german situation(i mean you can but it comes online later).
     
  18. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    If you just care about the production part, Hansas win every day. Oppidum might be better if you need it for the encampment ability, but I think most games for humans they would take the production (especially if you count the more restrictive Op. placement rules).

    Oppidum is still good - it's pretty easy to get +4 or more, and it comes early, and sometimes the defense will help. But it's not in the Hanseatic league.
     
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  19. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    I'm surprised everyone's saying Hansa, I would've said Oppidum for the reasons stated. At the very least it would be a tie. The Hansa is too dependent on commercial hubs. You also have to put those up and dams and aqueducts, it's a lot of investment. Oppidums you get the benefit straight away and across all cities so you have a large empire with small cities these can act as emcampments also which is great. When I played Germany it was great for Hansas in main ring of cities but the benefit in smaller ones wasn't that much.
     
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  20. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    This would be a downside except the CH is like, one of the most sought after districts due to its trade route capacity.
    You have to play around the Hansa. You can see links in my signature to IZ/Hansa guides, but in short you want to set up all your cities in clusters of 3-4, which means you don’t really have a main ring and smaller cities.
     
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