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Whats the big deal with immortal pretorians?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DanielTorrence, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Dalinski

    Dalinski Chieftain

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    This might be bad advise but I figured it wouldn't hurt putting it out there.

    Would it be possible to achieve Construction in the time frame? You could go something like Babaylon where your don't need much to get a defence online and whip out a few catapults. The trick is to hide these catapults behind your city that is being attacked, as soon as his stack comes into range wack him with the pults and finish the rest of the stack.

    Let me know if it would be possible due to Construction just be too far up the chain.....althought you might be able to bulb it or Oracle it or something.....

    Its only gonna work once....if at all....
     
  2. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    To tech to Praetorians, you need, as prerequisites:

    (a) Mining ---> Bronze Working
    To tech to Catapults:

    (a) Agriculture ---> Pottery ---> Writing ---> Mathematics
    (b) Mysticism ---> Masonry

    Then, to build the Oracle, you need:

    (c) Meditation ---> Priesthood​

    Italicized = other options (Agriculture/Fishing; Mining/Mysticism, etc.).

    It is possible to Oracle Construction, but this becomes increasingly luck based on levels above Emperor. You need to generate a lot of :science: in a very short amount of time, which requires an outstanding commerce start.
     
  3. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    OP I agree with you that prats are actually a bit strategically awkward to use. If you do bee-line IW and wheel, as some have suggested, you would have no food and no commerce, unless you started coastal with seafood. Obviously you need food first. It's also annoying to have to choose between pottery and an IW bee-line. Sure, you can get prats early but your economy is going to be incredibly awful. Prats can stomp small cities just like HAs can but even prats will have a difficult time taking enemy capitals, and often need catapult support to avoid heavy losses. I used to do the whole bee-line IW and pump them out ASAP thing but that just ended up making my game based on luck.

    Now I do a more balanced approach - I get food and pottery and a few cities while researching IW. My economy is fine at that point and I get prats. I can then still attack someone and take a few cities and then wait for catapults to start attacking capitals.

    One thing to remember is that prats don't really need to rush, they have a long lifespan. They are as strong as macemen so you can use them with catapults and take a lot of land. Longbows don't stop them the way they would stop swords. CR2 and CR3 prats will still take cities from longbows and crossbows. It really takes macemen to stop them.

    I *might* skip pottery and bee-line straight to IW if I have either lots of seafood and thus will get commerce from the water tiles, or if I have a luxury resource to start, like gold or gems. If I have both, then I would probably bee-line IW.
     
  4. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    You don't need to beeline IW to the point that you ignore all other worker techs. The reason Praetorians are so powerful isn't just how soon you can get them, it's how cheap they are for their strength and the fact that they still get winning odds against axes. CR promoted praetorians in the classical age are way better than elephants.
     
  5. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    ^^ yep, a double CR prat is one scary beast
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Double CR is good, but (think this was already said) with being IMP, creating CR3-Praets from the HE and / or GT-City is really easy, and the 3rd promotion again is almost as good, as the 2 before that.
     
  7. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    well, creating combat 5, flanking 2, pinch, cavalry is even better than that...........
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Yes, with the difference, that the mentioned Cavalry needs about settled 20 GGs, while the CR3 Praets actually need 2, which are mathematically 1, because of being IMP...
     
  9. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    By the time you have access to both war civics and 2 settled generals in the HE city, prats are no longer strategically relevant.

    Anyway, I said CR2 prats were good because at that point they become noticeably better at attacking cities than an elephant, also, CR2 prats come very early in the game.
     
  10. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Two settled GGs and both theocracy and vassalage. It makes more sense to settle 1GG for instant CRII and use the other as a super-medic. 1-move warfare without a supermedic is painfully slow.
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    1. CR3 Praets last easily as long as until the enemy has Rifles. Even then, a CR3 Praet has good chances after collateral from Cannons.

    2. Even 3 GGs are still quite easy to get with any IMP leader, though the only real difference between having a Supermedic and not having one, is, that the Supermedic somehow seems to disable the malus by healing in enemy territory. Besides that, a Medic2 doesn't heal that much slower than a Medic3 does, and in real "total war"-games, one has more then 1 Stack, so the decision is somewhere near having Supermedics at all, or simply having better promoted troops.
    I can understand both decisions, having a Supermedic allows for healing in front of the enemies cities while the bombardement still takes place, while having CR3 Praets from the start is just insanely powerful and hammer-effective.
     
  12. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

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    Except that if "from the start" means "from when you have both theology and feudalism" then it's actually quite a ways from the start. By the time you have cannons whether the rest of your troops have CRII or CRIII becomes totally irrelevant unless your numbers are extremely limited (kind of defeats the purpose of massed siege). CR promotions work based on the defender's strength. In the very early game if your Praets are fighting mostly archers you actually do better with Combat than with CR (less than half your base strength).
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I thought we also agreed, that Praets have a very long time-span. Attacking Archers with them, is mostly something encountered on small maps, where one stays at 3 cities, but even then, it's quite rare up to my experience. Axes are sometimes opponents, Longbows always are, and against Longbows, CR3 helps a lot. Feudalism + Theology also get researched really fast by the AI, and Longbows last until Rifles, so that's a really big time-window of which I'm talking in which CR3-Praets with those 2 Civics are available.
     
  14. paulcarri

    paulcarri Prince

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    im working my way through all the civs on the earth 18 map, today was rome

    i settled in place, built some workboats, a worker and barracks then pretorians for god knows how many turns

    they are so good! i wiped out france, germany, england, russia, spain in no time

    i probably could of wiped out persia and egypt and india too ..but wanted trading partners

    as usual i wasnt agressive enough and stopped at 18 cities

    with such a high base strength as well they arent obsolete for a very long time
     
  15. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I concur with noto2 on starting technologies for a Praetorian rush:

    Seafood start is best, but research Agriculture, if necessary to improve Corn, Wheat and/or Rice (preferably wet). Research Animal Husbandry, if really needed to improve Pig, Sheep and/or Cow.

    The Wheel -> Pottery (allows Cottages and Granaries; both must have technologies for a sound Praetorian rush; Cottages will help get one to IW faster and help pay maintenance on all the cities captured; Granaries make whipping Praetorians almost twice as efficient as without)

    Bronze Working -> Iron Working (only way to get Praetorians)

    Two ways to deal with enemy Axemen:

    1) Build a few Axemen yourself and promote to Combat I and Shock.

    2) Promote a few Praetorians to Combat I and Shock (My preferrence, since they also kill units in cities better than any Axeman).

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  16. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Yup. Praets are good.

    They're cheap elephants that get City Raider, without need for Ivory or Construction.
     
  17. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    On Immortal+, Praetorians don't necessarily allow you to dominate the game. They're still very strong because they're relevant for a decent amount of time.

    They aren't bad even when they're just discount macemen... for one thing, they win hammer-for-hammer against Crossbows. Heck, I'll happily clean use them to clean up after cannons.
     
  18. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Praetorians in the ancient and classical eras benefit much more from Combat promotions than City Raider because of their high base strength. I always promote CI/CII/CIII and I give the occasional one Shock to deal with Axemen.

    Only when Longbowmen appear I switch to the City Raider line.
     
  19. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    yes but to get CR2 and CR3 prats facing longbows you need to upgrade the first ones you build to CR1...
     
  20. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    With Barracks and Theocracy I get CR2 right off the bat. Considering the plethora of GG points warring with the imperialistic Caesars and the possibility to run Vassalage as well CR3 is well within reach.

    Also worth noting that the brunt of the conquest happens before Feudalism. I'd rather have an advantage then. After I soften the medieval cities with plenty of siege promos barely make a difference anyways.

    Combat line is the way to go.
     

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