What's the point of running Theocracy if you have no state religion?

[jerVL/kg]

I'm running a game where Saladin, one of the AI civs, has no state religion at all. Seemed like a prime candidate for conversion, so I sent a boatload of missionaries only to find out...he's running Theocracy.

What the heck use is that??!?

 

[Gogf]

There is no point. Theocracy is Saladin's favorite civic, though, so he'll switch to it immediately. Pretty stupid strategy if he doesn't have any state religion, though, as he'll never be able to get one.

 

[Theodorick]

Gift him those missionaries and he'll use them on himself. He at least did it for me a few times before, which surprised me. He doesn't use those missionaries all the time though--once they just sat in his cities for the rest of the game.

 

[GiantRaven]

Does no state religion count as a religion so to speak?

For example: Do you get a 25% bonus to building production in non-religion cities by running organised religion?

 

[bobsteve]

No, its usless to use religious civics with no religion. Saladin did the same thing to me in my last game, what a moron. He wouldnt even use my missionaries when I gave them to him!

 

[Lord Gideon]

I have an idea about this. When playing the game, I noticed one feature missing from religion. You have to have it. The U.S.S.R. and early Communist China did not allow religion. Free religion is kind of like playing without a religion, but in reality it's the exact opposite. If I wanted to play historically, the religious civic Theocracy with no state religion prevents religion from being spread, but it gives you no advantages. You should be able to choose a civic like, say, Forced Atheism. Here's my idea:

Forced Atheism
High Upkeep (Due to persecuting those who do not abide by your law)
No religion spread.
Cities with religion have 1 unhappiness for each religion.
Cities have +50% production, -50% war unhappiness , +50% research
No religous buildings can be built, however, you can train Secret Police, which can remove religions from a city, resulting in 3 for 5 turns.

As for the above, that incoroporates a whole lot, and I'm definitely open to suggestions. However, I feel there is a need to represent this choice. Tell me what you think.

 

[mucco]

Gift him those missionaries and he'll use them on himself. He at least did it for me a few times before, which surprised me. He doesn't use those missionaries all the time though--once they just sat in his cities for the rest of the game.

This seems odd to me. In fact, even Saladin himself can't spread a religion via missionaries in his lands, if he is running teocracy. At least this is what I believe.
An "atheist theology" could be useful when a neighbor AI has lots of religions and shrines, and you don't want him to increase his money income with your cities. Adopting theocracy is a viable solution, I've tried it sometimes. If you don't choose a state religion no one will spread to you.

 

[ybbor]

@ lord G:

$10 says if that's put in you get Pat Robertson wanting to smite you for the -50% science thing.

And what do you mean by "Cities with religion have -1 for each religion"?

and +50% production & Science is amazingly overpowered

 

[GiantRaven]

I have an idea about this. When playing the game, I noticed one feature missing from religion. You have to have it. The U.S.S.R. and early Communist China did not allow religion. Free religion is kind of like playing without a religion, but in reality it's the exact opposite. If I wanted to play historically, the religious civic Theocracy with no state religion prevents religion from being spread, but it gives you no advantages. You should be able to choose a civic like, say, Forced Atheism. Here's my idea:

Forced Atheism
High Upkeep (Due to persecuting those who do not abide by your law)
No religion spread.
Cities with religion have -1 for each religion.
Cities have +50% production, -50% war , +50% research
No religous buildings can be built, however, you can train Secret Police, which can remove religions from a city, resulting in 3 for 5 turns.

As for the above, that incoroporates a whole lot, and I'm definitely open to suggestions. However, I feel there is a need to represent this choice. Tell me what you think.

Interesting, i like it!

 

[PublicEnemy]

Forced Atheism
High Upkeep (Due to persecuting those who do not abide by your law)
No religion spread.
Cities with religion have -1 for each religion.
Cities have +50% production, -50% war , +50% research
No religous buildings can be built, however, you can train Secret Police, which can remove religions from a city, resulting in 3 for 5 turns.

I assume you mean that cities have -1 happiness for each religion.

Secret Police cause 3 unhappy citizens for 5 turns?

Do you mean that all cities would have +50% production, -50% war weariness and +50% research? If you do then that would be ridiculously overpowered.

 

[Gyhth]

Forced Atheism
High Upkeep (Due to persecuting those who do not abide by your law)
No religion spread.
Cities with religion have -1 for each religion.
Cities have +50% production, -50% war , +50% research
No religous buildings can be built, however, you can train Secret Police, which can remove religions from a city, resulting in 3 for 5 turns.

As for the above, that incoroporates a whole lot, and I'm definitely open to suggestions. However, I feel there is a need to represent this choice. Tell me what you think.

I personally would like to see something like this myself, but not to that extreme. Maybe have it like an inverse of Freedom of Religion

Free Religion
Cost: Low
Tech: Liberalism
Result:
No state religion;
+1 per religion in a city;
+10% research in all cities

Forced Atheism, in my mind, just to keep it balanced should go someting like this then:


Forced Atheism
Cost: High
Tech: Communism?
Result:
No state religion;
+2%(?) higher upkeep per religion per city
+10% production in all cities

The reason for the upkeep cost would be because of the force needed to keep religion surpressed and out of the society. The number is probably too high, but that can be worked out, or balanced out with raising the mod to production.

The reasoning for the production is mostly becuase, well, some religions have a day where your not supposed to/allowed to work, where as if you do not have a religion, you can work each day, and thus the production bonus.

 

[Lord Gideon]

Yeah, I know that was a bit overpowered, lol. But seriously, I like Gyhth's idea. The production thing goes well becuase people don't have to spend time doing crazy things like worshping a "God". All their lives belong to the state! But it should have an unhappiness penalty, I'm pretty sure it ticked off anyone who actually beleived in someone. Of course, then the KGB comes and they disapear.

 

[Qwack]

That just seems like a weaker version of organized religion.. every though Org religion doesnt benefit troops.. but I think only +10% with the higher upkeep would be kind of weak.
I would suggest something like..

High upkeep
-1 Happy face per religion per city
+15% production
+5% research
Negates benefits from all religious buildings in cities with them(culture/happiness/research)

 

[Lord Gideon]

Thats still kind of weak. Lets say you have two religions in city A. A monastery, temple, and Cathedral/Pagoda/Synagogue for each one =6 , 6 culture, 20% research, and 100% culture. If your not gonna have religious buildings, it should be a bit more powered than that. 25% research and 25%production?

 

[Guerra]

Just because you don't have a state religion doesn't mean theocracy is a bad idea.

It keeps OTHER religions out of your cities, which means no spies!!!!

So, tactically, its a very good idea if you're playing an isolationist.

 

[Dr Corbett]

I'm not certain about no state religion = atheism. I always just saw it as my villagers worshipping the mighty THOR! Or something like that, until a more enlightened religion comes in and converts them from their paganism But yes, there's really no point other than to keep other religions out of your cities, from the looks of it. Having religion in your cities really is a benefit.

 

[Mutineer]

Forced Atheism does not work. Even in Russia religion was well alive all communism times, just not officially. Wiping out religions allmost imposible, as any othe ideas, no matter right or wrong.
So, forced Atheism with ability to wipe out religion is not reflecting RL.
Actially current game mechanic very simular to RL. One's you got it - you have to live with it and only by establishing independence of Goverment from religion can you get rid of it's pain.