What's the use of domination/conquest victory?

[Elolisos]

Well, I've been playing civilization IV quite a bit, and come to the conclusion that there are really 3 different victories:

1. Diplomacy
If you are hoplessly behind other civs in mid/late game, this still enables a way to win the game, even when any other victory would be impossible.

2. Space race = Domination Victory = Conquest Victory
The reason I consider these victories to be the same is that I think if you can win one of them you can also win using the others. In most of my games, I conquer at least one other civilization in early/mid game, so usually I have the largest empire. This will enable me to tech ahead, so usually I just stop expanding and go for space race victory. I could perhaps also use my advantage to continue waging war and go for conquest, but this would require much more micromanagement, so I simply can't be bothered. Similarly, if you are going for conquest victory, you might as well stop after taking over the first couple of civilizations, invest in your cities and go for space race. You will have the largest empire, and so it will be easy.

3. Cultural victory
If you want to go for cultural victory, you have to start planning early, and generate a lot of great artists probably. You have to have a pretty good starting location. In fact, you probably have to have such a good location that you could have won the ordinary way, by generating great scientists, focusing on research, teching ahead and perhaps taking over another civilization.


Many will perhaps not agree with all of this, but I would like to know if anyone has ever won a game using domination/conquest victory that could not have been won by going for space race. Also, my experience of all of this is on Civ IV vanilla, playing emperor.

 

[KingMorgan]

Conquest / Dom victory is possible much earlier than space race, even on quick speed. Why micro a space win when you could finish 200 turns earlier?

 

[Rosiel]

The main reason for all those victory types is variety in gameplay. And it is a good thing. But I dont agree with you. In many games I've played that dragged on to future era, the AI had so many units that I could not possibly win with domination. Instead space victory was easier and won me the games.

Diplomatic and Cultural victory are easier imo. They are my favourite ones too I've even have won games without getting into war ever. Lovely

 

[Ergo Sum]

They're more fun

Going for late domination/conquest is very possible. I've started dom pushes with an arty-drafted rifles war at parity and since won the game.

 

[coanda]

If you can win a conquest victory, you can win any other victory condition... if you're willing to keep playing long enough. But it's probably the earliest possible victory, so if you're going for speed... but yes, it's not a victory condition used to "salvage" a losing position.

On the other hand, Domination has the benefit that you can often achieve it very late in the game in relatively few turns by capitulating AIs in rapid succession using nukes + commando cavalry, tanks + bombers, or various other tricks. You might well see multiple AIs all heading towards a fast victory by culture or SS - too many AIs for you to kill them all before they win. In that case, Domination could salvage a situation where you don't have time to get your own SS or cultural victory. It's also probably the "safest" victory condition to aim for. A SS victory can be wrecked if you lose your capital; a cultural if you lose one of your 3 main cities; religious and diplo. can sometimes be derailed by an unexpected religious conversion or backstab playing havoc with your carefully arranged relations. On the other hand, the only way to stop a domination victory in progress is to win yourself sooner (e.g., via SS), or actually win a major war against the player attempting domination. Also, domination is a natural outgrowth of good aggressive play - if you're a warmonger, odds are at least half your games end in domination victories almost by accident.

 

[Framesticker]

Play on Immortal, then tell come back and tell us how much "eliminating a civ early on" or "teching ahead' works there.

 

[Bibor]

Play on Immortal, then tell come back and tell us how much "eliminating a civ early on" or "teching ahead' works there.

Check out the latest DMOC's Deity game with Willem. He had tech party throught most of the game and sometimes even ahead.

 

[Jerrymander]

2. Space race = Domination Victory = Conquest Victory
The reason I consider these victories to be the same is that I think if you can win one of them you can also win using the others. In most of my games, I conquer at least one other civilization in early/mid game, so usually I have the largest empire. This will enable me to tech ahead, so usually I just stop expanding and go for space race victory.

The things some people do...

 

[Framesticker]

Check out the latest DMOC's Deity game with Willem. He had tech party throught most of the game and sometimes even ahead.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that no player (or at least, a VERY select few) can say that in most games he applies the techniques demonstrated above.

Edit: If I'm already here...

1. Diplomacy
If you are hoplessly behind other civs in mid/late game, this still enables a way to win the game, even when any other victory would be impossible.

False. Diplomatic Win is typically the result of one of two things:

1) You chain vassal most of the civs in the game, and settle down for a "Diplomation" victory (since all your vassals are obliged to vote for you)

2) You are rolling ahead with tech (usually you're on the bigger of two alliances, typically made through religion, fair trade and mutual military victories.

Also, being backwards is typically ar result of a few things:

1) Having a less-then-six city empire with small populations
2) Surrounded by warmongers
3) Drawn into long, unsustainable wars

With any of these three, you typically can't make the MM beeline before some like Mansa or Pacal does so.

2. Space race = Domination Victory = Conquest Victory

The reason I consider these victories to be the same is that I think if you can win one of them you can also win using the others. In most of my games, I conquer at least one other civilization in early/mid game, so usually I have the largest empire. This will enable me to tech ahead, so usually I just stop expanding and go for space race victory. I could perhaps also use my advantage to continue waging war and go for conquest, but this would require much more micromanagement, so I simply can't be bothered. Similarly, if you are going for conquest victory, you might as well stop after taking over the first couple of civilizations, invest in your cities and go for space race. You will have the largest empire, and so it will be easy.

That's much more reasonable than your Diplo scenario, and happens a lot. However, it's quite a generalization. Let's take it step by step:

Space Victories (for me at least) aren't a result of a few early wars which snowball into a huge industrialized empire in the endgame. Typically, I lead a small, landblocked empire which does not have the production capability to go against other nations, but has to compete in tech and power with cultural, diplomatic and other space victories. This goes mainly due to the major bonuses the AI receives on maintenance costs and production, which makes them totally outtech and outREX me on the higher levels.

I have to go now, so I'll edit with more details later.

 

[Elolisos]

Conquest / Dom victory is possible much earlier than space race, even on quick speed. Why micro a space win when you could finish 200 turns earlier?

From my experience, late/mid-game wars require more micro than anything else in the game, due to the enormous amount of troops involved. Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but I find it very hard to defeat more than a couple of AIs in one game, and defeating 6 would be almost impossible for me. After taking over a lot of territory, it seems impossible for me to simply take on the next AI, since my army has been weakend, and I have to leave troops in the newly conquered territory, and I often no longer have the military advantage techwise that I had at the beginning of the war. The only way I can do it is consolidate my new territory, and then beeline for the next major military tech before starting another war. How should I play to wage continuous war during the entire game?

If you can win a conquest victory, you can win any other victory condition... if you're willing to keep playing long enough. But it's probably the earliest possible victory, so if you're going for speed... but yes, it's not a victory condition used to "salvage" a losing position.

On the other hand, Domination has the benefit that you can often achieve it very late in the game in relatively few turns by capitulating AIs in rapid succession using nukes + commando cavalry, tanks + bombers, or various other tricks. You might well see multiple AIs all heading towards a fast victory by culture or SS - too many AIs for you to kill them all before they win. In that case, Domination could salvage a situation where you don't have time to get your own SS or cultural victory. It's also probably the "safest" victory condition to aim for. A SS victory can be wrecked if you lose your capital; a cultural if you lose one of your 3 main cities; religious and diplo. can sometimes be derailed by an unexpected religious conversion or backstab playing havoc with your carefully arranged relations. On the other hand, the only way to stop a domination victory in progress is to win yourself sooner (e.g., via SS), or actually win a major war against the player attempting domination. Also, domination is a natural outgrowth of good aggressive play - if you're a warmonger, odds are at least half your games end in domination victories almost by accident.

What you wrote about the late game nuke war seems interesting. My problem with wars in general is what I wrote above. For me it takes considerable effort just defeating one AI, and often what will happen is that another will emerge stronger and more advanced, since they are not slowed down by fighting wars.

Play on Immortal, then tell come back and tell us how much "eliminating a civ early on" or "teching ahead' works there.

Hm, my experience is that the higher difficulty you play on, the more important it is to fight and win early wars, if you have any neighbors that is. On prince for example I could just expand peacfully and not fight any war until late game, but now on emperor I have to defeat another civilization at least before or during the medieval era to stand any chance of winning something other than a diplomatic victory. An exception is possible when I play a financial civ, then it is possible to keep up tech-wise mid-game even if I'm not the largest civ.

 

[thecowwarrior]

I find that it is generally NOT the warmongers that win Space Races. They just sit back and focus on science while other civs bash at each other in expensive wars.

 

[ahcos]

I find that it is generally NOT the warmongers that win Space Races. They just sit back and focus on science while other civs bash at each other in expensive wars.

yeah, and then they ask you for coal/oil/copper/aluminium because they don't have it in their puny territory and, furthermore, don't have enough production to finish all the spaceship parts they discovered first ~

the problem aren't the typical warmonger and neither the techer AIs but the successful AIs like gilgamesh, cathy, zara, mehmed. they're all pretty strong or very strong military, they rex like crazy and get decent citysites, and they're all pretty good techers. they outtech warmongers easily and are able to defend theirselfs against them in the earlygame, and they're aggressive enough to overtake weak leaders. then they're able to win space. but it's definitively not common for the pure techers like mansa, ghandi or lizzy to win by space because they lack the land. well, it happens actually, but it's rather easy to stop them. but try to stop a fast teching bismarck with unitbuildprob 35 - on immortal, you'll get your ass handed back in nice little pieces trying.

on the other hand, space is a very common warmonger victory path for humans. you start with too little land and need more for space? well, easy answer often, you're too lazy then to finish them all off and just go space. well, at least that's what i do often after i've taken over my landmass and cleaned it up from the pestering indians and japanese :>


@topic: i have to agree on conquest VC, it's a rather useless VC and i've done it only 3 or 4 times to see the victory video. but domination? most fun VC of them all! is there anything like being the ruler of the whole world? everyone follows your command? on a sidenote, it's usually the most challenging VC, but that may be my personal view because i follow that VC in 95% of my games and don't "play the map" for other VCs.

 

[DNK]

My favorite victory condition is: quitting because you know you've got it in the bag and don't want to micro manage 30 cities for the next 10 hours when you can just start up a new game where there's actual challenges to be had.

 

[6K Man]

My favorite victory condition is: quitting because you know you've got it in the bag and don't want to micro manage 30 cities for the next 10 hours when you can just start up a new game where there's actual challenges to be had.

This is my usual victory condition, although I wouldn't say it's my favourite. I always feel it's a bit cheap to abandon a game rather than seeing it through, although that feeling doesn't stop me from starting a new game.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Play on Immortal, then tell come back and tell us how much "eliminating a civ early on" or "teching ahead' works there.

Works very well, thank you. What about you, ever played Immortal?

I completely agree with the OP. In 90% of the cases, going for domination/conquest is only a matter of "having fun" since most people deslike hitting end of turn until you get to alpha centaury.

But there are cases in which you need to go for a war victory. Sometimes your first wars drags you away for too long so that one other civ (at least) is way ahead in tech to be reached in time for a tech victory. But still in reach to have it's capital razed by 60 infantry/artillery.

Or maybe there are 2-3 small Civs that you can capitulate real fast using the army left over from your first war, and their votes combined with that of an ally can get you a Diplo victory way faster then you would go to space.

Actually, the fact that you are almost guaranteed a win after winning a first war makes me quit so many games without actually finishing them.

 

[Paw]

I've won a few space games where I don't think I could have won dom/conquest.

Recently a game with asoka on earth18 comes to mind where I played almost the entire game peacefully and won a space race.

 

[Framesticker]

Works very well, thank you. What about you, ever played Immortal?

I regularly play on either Emperor with a Random Leader with mosly successful games (I still try to understand how to beat Emperor AIs with a crappy plain-littered isolated island) or on Immortal with a chosen leader. True, my play is very unoptimal and I have many horizons to expand to, but at least I try.

The thing is the OP hasn't stated the level of his play, which led me to conclude that he's probably playing at Noble or Prince or so. Any good high-level player will tell you that not all high-level games are winnable (and definitely not most of them are a result of some early war creating a huge industrialized nation that leads to either Space or Military.

I think you'll agree as well.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I am seriously trying to figure out if this is just a troll, or a completely trash CIV player. If you can't war successfully there is something seriously wrong with your CIV skills. With out war you will never have enough land to get a fast victory in anything but Culture, and thus you will have extremely late wins, and even lower scores.

 

[Geek113377]

the point of comquest & domination is to have fun chopping pplz heads off!

 

[madscientist]

Cruising ahead to a space race win is no guarentee after taking 1 02 civc and having the biggest empire. At Immortal I have too often run into a very sold and stronge AI that is going for Culture before I can launch the space ship.

A conquest/Domination victory is a way to eliminate any threats from the AI. Going to Space leaves yourself open to losses.

Also, the victory movies for Conquest and Domination are way cooler.