What's up with Taiwan and Chiang Kai-shek?

[CELTICEMPIRE]

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3314227

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) – President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) on Wednesday praised the passage of the Transitional Justice Act by the Legislative Yuan the previous evening as a milestone in the development of Taiwan’s democracy.

The wide-ranging measure will likely lead to the revelation of secrets from the Martial Law era, to the redressing of injustices, and to the removal of symbols from the authoritarian era, most prominently from the rule of President Chiang Kai-shek from 1945 to 1975...

The passage of the law is also expected to lead to the removal of Chiang Kai-shek statues and of his name from schools and roads. The fate of the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall in Taipei is also likely to come up for review following long-term demands to change its function.

From earlier this year:

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...orial-hall-removes-souvenirs-of-former-leader

TAIPEI (AFP) - A Taiwanese memorial hall named after Chiang Kai-shek has stopped selling souvenirs depicting the former nationalist leader, authorities said Saturday (Feb 25), as the island deals with the "deep scar" left by his rule...

The Chiang Kai-shek memorial hall, which was built after the leader's death in 1975 and is one of Taipei's most recognisable landmarks, will stop playing a song dedicated to Chiang at its opening and closing, a statement from the culture ministry added.

References to the former ruler would be removed from the names of galleries, but a 6.3-metre-tall bronze statue of a seated Chiang - the hall's centrepiece - would remain, the ministry said.

Relatives of White Terror victims have said that memorials named after Chiang should be changed and his statues removed.

The former ruler led the KMT to Taiwan to establish a separate government after losing a civil war in 1949 to the Communists.

The hall was renamed "National Taiwan Democracy Memorial Hall" in 2007 by former president Chen Shui-bian of the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which has its roots in a movement opposing KMT's one-party rule.

I understand that Chiang did some bad things, but am I the only one who thinks this is going too far? It's the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial, but they can't sell Chiang Kai-shek souvenirs? In Mainland China, Mao Zedong is on merchandise everywhere. But apparently in Taiwan Chiang Kai-shek has to be erased from everything.

The Chiang Kai-shek Memorial is a place I really wanted to visit one day. But now I'm afraid that by the time I get around to it, all references to one of the most interesting 20th century leaders will be removed. I hope at the very least that people aren't going to do the same thing to Sun Yat-sen.

Ironically, the Chiang Kai-shek merchandise I do own I bought in Beijing.

 

[Zkribbler]

Chiang Kai-shek was a dictator, plain and simple. His ruthlessness and corruption led to the deaths of millions of Chinese. They kicked him off the mainland, and he moved his dictatorship to Taiwan. There is nothing about him to celebrate.

The same can be said of Mao. The reason you can buy souvenirs of him is because his dictatorship is still in power.

 

[Broken_Erika]

He also at first refused to fight the japanese until the commies were exterminated, several officers had to kidnap him and force him to agree to a ceasefire in order to fight the japanese invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_Incident

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Chiang Kai-shek was a dictator, plain and simple. His ruthlessness and corruption led to the deaths of millions of Chinese. They kicked him off the mainland, and he moved his dictatorship to Taiwan. There is nothing about him to celebrate.

The same can be said of Mao. The reason you can buy souvenirs of him is because his dictatorship is still in power.

He did many good things as well. He helped subdue the warlords, he defended his country against Japan and continued the legacy of Sun Yat-sen. He planned on fighting corruption after he defeated the Communists. The only reason he lost was because KMT soldiers bore the brunt of the Japanese invasion and the Soviets effectively handed over Manchuria to the Communists. Winston Churchill did some terrible things as well, but he is still remembered for his heroic leadership during WWII.

He also at first refused to fight the japanese until the commies were exterminated, several officers had to kidnap him and force him to agree to a ceasefire in order to fight the japanese invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_Incident

Chiang was originally allied with the Communists, but then he learned about what was going on in the USSR. Can you really blame him for saying "The Japanese are a disease of the skin. The Communists are a disease of the heart."?

 

[Evie]

A skin cancer will probably still kill you faster than a floppy heart valve.

Chiang was a screwed up wannabe dictator who sabotaged the legacy of Sun Yat-Sen rather than continue it, and was more interested in increasing his power than in building any sort of lasting basis for China, which was as big a factor in the Communist victory as any of what you named. Much of what cold war respect he got come down to the loonie bin "The enemy of a commie is my friend" mentality cultivated by certain wings of the ideologically blind right. (Not that the wings of the left that went "The Soviet Union stand for equality and is our friend!" were any better.)

 

[Farm Boy]

40 million.

Edit: I approve of the edit, somewhat. But heart valve defects, as the numbers would demonstrate, are no joke. They're worth cracking open your chest and slicing open your heart to deal with. Even scarier, sometimes, when it's not technically your own.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

A skin cancer will probably still kill you faster than a floppy heart valve.

Chiang was a screwed up wannabe dictator who sabotaged the legacy of Sun Yat-Sen rather than continue it, and was more interested in increasing his power than in building any sort of lasting basis for China, which was as big a factor in the Communist victory as any of what you named. Much of what cold war respect he got come down to the loonie bin "The enemy of a commie is my friend" mentality cultivated by certain wings of the ideologically blind right. (Not that the wings of the left that went "The Soviet Union stand for equality and is our friend!" were any better.)

A lot of what we learn in history about the China in WWII and the nation's Civil War is inaccurate. Mao is protrayed as 70% right, 30% wrong, while Chiang Kai-shek is portrayed as Asian Hitler. Chiang, for all his faults, at least cared about his country and desired to keep it from becoming like the Soviet Union. As far as the Cold War mentality goes, I don't think that all enemies of Communism are friends, but it is undeniable that if Chiang won China would never have gone through the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. For me, 1949 ranks with 1917 and 1453 as one of the saddest years in history.

 

[Evie]

Mao 70% right, 30% wrong? That doesn't sound like what I studied at University.

In any event, "He wasn't as bad as Mao" is no ground to honor someone.

 

[Traitorfish]

I understand that Chiang did some bad things, but am I the only one who thinks this is going too far? It's the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial, but they can't sell Chiang Kai-shek souvenirs? In Mainland China, Mao Zedong is on merchandise everywhere. But apparently in Taiwan Chiang Kai-shek has to be erased from everything.

Yes, this is absolutely because of a double-standard and revionist history, and not because China is an authoritarian one-party state and Taiwan is, just about, a liberal democracy.

Ye've cracked it, boyo.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Mao 70% right, 30% wrong? That doesn't sound like what I studied at University.

In any event, "He wasn't as bad as Mao" is no ground to honor someone.

When did you go to University? Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, and Che are all considered cool on college campuses.

I think he should be honored for his fight against the warlords, his role in World War II, and his tragically unsuccessful fight against Communism.

Yes, this is absolutely because of a double-standard and revionist history, and not because China is an authoritarian one-party state and Taiwan is, just about, a liberal democracy.

Ye've cracked it, boyo.

I think you read too much into that. But there is a historical double-standard.

 

[Senethro]

When did you go to University? Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, and Che are all considered cool on college campuses.

I think he should be honored for his fight against the warlords, his role in World War II, and his tragically unsuccessful fight against Communism.

I think you read too much into that. But there is a historical double-standard.

Yeah, its coming across that even you believe he wasn't so great but that you are really concerned about the legacy of anyone who played on the anti-communist team.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think you read too much into that. But there is a historical double-standard.

How much Mao merchandise are they selling in Taiwan?

Unless it's in excess of the Chiang merchandise, by a statistically appreciable margin, then it's not a double standard; it's just a standard, and you're supposed to have standards.

 

[FriendlyFire]

He also at first refused to fight the japanese until the commies were exterminated, several officers had to kidnap him and force him to agree to a ceasefire in order to fight the japanese invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_Incident

In hind sight the cease fire was a mistake, but then Chiang Kai-shek bungled the war, internal economics and was hugely corrupt
Especially considering the strength of US backed Chinese at the end of the war

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Yeah, its coming across that even you believe he wasn't so great but that you are really concerned about the legacy of anyone who played on the anti-communist team.

Franco was bad, so was Batista. They were not fit to be leaders of their countries.

How much Mao merchandise are they selling in Taiwan?

Unless it's in excess of the Chiang merchandise, by a statistically appreciable margin, then it's not a double standard; it's just a standard, and you're supposed to have standards.

Maybe the Mao merchandise comparison was silly. However, I've noticed that schools (especially in higher education) briefly mention Communist dictators' crimes and then take a magnifying glass and go over everything bad that has happened in Capitalist countries, especially in East Asia and Latin America. For instance, I was actually taught that Mao did more to fight the Japanese than Chiang Kai-shek. I don't blame my professor, I'm pretty sure he was taught that by mainland Chinese professors. The "Chiang did nothing" myth is as widespread as "the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery." This goes way beyond merchandise.

 

[Evie]

My History of China from 1910 to today class, in the Asian studies program at the University of Montreal, spent whole weeks on the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. It still did not have anything nice to say about Chiang.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

My History of China from 1910 to today class, in the Asian studies program at the University of Montreal, spent whole weeks on the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. It still did not have anything nice to say about Chiang.

How long ago was that? Based on the date you joined I assume that you are older than me, unless you joined as a very young child. I graduated very recently.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Chiang should have won an award for world's best leader, but I think we still need to recognize him for his positive accomplishments which I have already named. I certainly think that Taiwan shouldn't remove all references to Chiang Kai-shek from a Memorial for Chiang Kai-shek.

 

[Evie]

That was in the early 2000s.

I think who the Taiwanesse people want to honor or not to honor is best left to the Taiwanesse people, who doubtless have a much more in-depth appreciation of the nature and impact of Chiang's rule and what benefit it had or did not have for them (many of them having actually lived through Chiang's rule), than people living in Quebec/Ontario (depending) or in Kentucky.

 

[Traitorfish]

However, I've noticed that schools (especially in higher education) briefly mention Communist dictators' crimes and then take a magnifying glass and go over everything bad that has happened in Capitalist countries, especially in East Asia and Latin America.

Notice where? What exposure are you getting to high school history curricula? How many college classes on twentieth century history have you sat in on? Or does "noticed", here, just mean "assumed, based on what others have told me"?

 

[Virote_Considon]

It's just a part of the current trend of iconoclasm circulating in the West right now, which goes right back to the Christian roots of contemporarily-secular liberalism.

 

[Traitorfish]

It's just a part of the current trend of iconoclasm circulating in the West right now, which goes right back to the Christian roots of contemporarily-secular liberalism.

Countries dismantling the personality cults of dead strongmen is not a new thing, nor a specifically Western and liberal one.