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When a Civ's ability actively hurts them...

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by SxSnts9, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. SxSnts9

    SxSnts9 Warlord

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    So Phoenicia has just been previewed (One of the civs I've been looking forward to most) and it definitely looks interesting. But one of their "Bonuses" is actually a complete malus.

    Phoenicia starts the game with the writing eureka unlocked. This is completely useless. 99% of the time you will meet another civilization before even thinking about researching writing. Unless they've changed the eureka requirement this will be a complete dud and have basically no positive impact. Especially for a water themed civ that can easily explore the shores and find new people.

    The reason this can actually be a malus is that sometimes City-States (If you meet them early enough) will give you an envoy quest for unlocking the eureka for writing. Seeing as this is the simplest eureka possible it's always an extra envoy for me. Those early envoys can be a huuuuge boon too. Phoenicia will never have this opportunity.

    Granted, this is a rather small malus as it's not like every game you will see this envoy quest. Still though, it makes me question the design decisions. Unless the civ designer has never played Civ VI I don't see how he/she could possibly think this helps at all. And for higher level players it can actually hinder your advancement slightly. Hopefully they've changed the eureka for writing, but if not this was a complete miss by the dev team.
     
  2. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    It was puzzling to me as well what purpose this bonus should fulfill. Someone suggested it's there to help Phoenicia on island plates maps or other isolated starts when you might research writing before meeting another civ or a CS.
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    It's almost certainly merely a thematic add on, not meant to make much (if any) difference.
     
  4. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    True that the boost for writing is exceptionally simple. Would not mind if it was changed to something you don't get every time.
     
  5. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I've mentioned in another thread that a good thematic change for the Writing boost is to make it "Interact with another civilization that has already discovered Writing."

    That means that it's rarer and the first civ has to hard research it (or get it from a goodie hut). Historically, very few civilizations independently invented writing. The Phoenician alphabet appears to have been inspired by Egyptian hieroglyphs. The Greek, Roman, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic alphabets were either directly borrowed from the Phoenician alphabet or developed from an alphabet that borrowed from the Phoenician one. The various Indian alphabets may have been independent or adapted from Aramaic (still debated), but almost all of the Southeast Asian alphabets were inspired by the Indian alphabet. The Japanese kana system was adapted from Chinese. The Korean hangul was loosely inspired by a combination of the Mongolian seal script and the Chinese alphabet. Truly independent forms of writing seem to have come in only a few places: China, India (assuming the Indus Valley Script is writing), Egypt, Mesopotamia, Central America, and Northern Europe.

    Also, that will really make this more interesting for the Phoenicians. Still, I'd rather they start with the boost for shipbuilding. Or celestial navigation.
     
  6. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Yes, this is a potential lost opportunity, though fairly rare.

    Just as the bonus itself would be one that would be fairly rare to benefit from. As @DWilson noted, this is almost certainly a thematic nod.

    Where the bonus would be a true bonus is those very rare situations where you roll an isolated start. Those tend to be good start positions for peaceful players, as you have room to spread out. What is already a good situation would, for Phoenicia, be even better, as it wouldn't delay them getting to Campuses.
     
    DWilson likes this.
  7. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

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    Perhaps they added maps allowing very common isolated starts? I'd really want this. I'd really like a guarantee not to see any other major civ until turn 100 or so.
     
  8. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Prince

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    When I read that part of Phoenicia's bonus, I briefly thought to myself, "Maybe, for the first time ever, I won't go scout first."

    But who am I kidding? The boosts for astrology, foreign trade, and political philosophy are still too important to ignore, not to mention finding good settlement locations.
     
  9. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    The AI scores technologies which were boosted much higher than non-boosted. Bascially they pretty much get researched as first ones whenever possible. So this „insignificant” boost should actually make Dido research Writing much faster than others do, also most likely before Astrology. This will mean that Dido will start building Campuses first not Holy Sites.
    Provided Firaxis will not mess up with other AI settings for Phoenicia, ofc :)
     
  10. SxSnts9

    SxSnts9 Warlord

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    You all bring up fair and well thought-out points...but I still think it's ****e. LOL If Phoenicia started with the tech itself that'd be one thing, or maybe a boost to both Celestial Navigation and Writing. But as it is this is a completely useless 'ability' for a human player. Even on iso starts you'll be able to build those biremes so fast you should be able to find a coast of another land plate soon enough. Unless you're talking about a completely isolated start where you can't even sail from coast-to-coast between lands. I guess in that case it's useful, but that's so rare.

    I guess I'm just a bit disappointed by Phoenicia so I'm railing on this one point in particular. While they do seem unique they are definitely a lower tier civ for me thus far. Their naval bonuses are undeniably strong, but I'd rather be Indonesia if I wanted a strong navy advantage. And some of Phoenicia's 'bonuses' are utter crap in my eyes. Writing boost, Settler having extra movement at sea (Useless until shipbuilding and once you have shipbuilding you better have your core cities set up), ditto for the extra settler sight at sea, bireme protects trade routes...trade routes you won't have until the bireme is outclasses by other ships.

    Just ranting I guess...sorry. Was hoping for more. Plus, Dido is such a stupid leader choice. LOL

    I think I need a hug.
     
    ezzlar likes this.
  11. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    I think as @Siptah mentioned in the other thread, this is a puzzling bonus. And I agree with you, I didn't realize it could actively hurt Phoenicia... though the chances of meeting a city state and getting that quest while not also running into another civ I think are very low.

    Phoenicia probably won't be a top tier civ, probably middle of the pack, but I think their character is well represented. The cothon is beautiful and they'll be able to protect their coastal cities very easily, and with enough luck with the coastal spots in their games they could be quite powerful.

    I do think they could use a few more minor tweaks, like maybe giving the trade unit protection to all their naval units rather than just the bireme. That would be a nice minor change, but of course multiplayer also has to be considered for any balance changes, it'd probably be OP in that case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  12. Equilin

    Equilin Prince

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    There is Canada "no surprise war" and Mali "Mine -1 Prod" and you're complaining about a very indirect debuff?
    Tech-wise, Maori cannot get TWO eurekas because they start with 2 techs researched (and imo they might have a better exploration capability, meaning more CSes met where these potential envoys lost).
    Not all abilities have to be significant imo.
    Also it provides even more option for modders to give eurekas in advance for modded civs.
     
  13. Weraptor

    Weraptor Prince

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    I'd actually love to see the "meet at least 1 other civilization" boost moved to Foreign Trade. The current one is too dependent on continent generation RNG and can be also very frustrating if you start on a continental divide. What else could replace the Writing Eureka, tho?
     
  14. IdiotStyle

    IdiotStyle Warlord

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    maybe they could have both the foreign trade boost and writing tbh
     
  15. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    That makes sense. If this is indeed the intention then it's inaccurate to say that it's useless, or worse, a malus.
     
  16. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Most writing systems derived from the need to keep storage records... build a granary might be a possibility, altough it rarely be triggered. Improve X resources could work. It is kind of overlapping with other early techs and civics but fits, tematically and with what you are doing at that moment.

    On the OP: ¿won’t that city state quest be blocked if you have already the eureka? (I.e. quests update/renew each age, and you are not asked to get eurekas you already have or for wich you have the tech already researched). Don’t you get a different quest then? It may be argued if the alternative quests are more/less dificult in that case, but it is not a malus per-se
     
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Assuming "Northern Europe" is a reference to Nordic runes, those were developed from Etruscan script; same with Irish ogham. Nowhere in Europe was writing independently invented unless you accept Vinca markings were proto-writing, which is very far from established. China, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Mesoamerica are the only places we can conclusively say writing was developed independently; we can tentatively add India, but ICV script may still have been derived from/influenced by cuneiform. Speaking of alphabetic writing specifically, virtually all alphabets ultimately derive from Phoenician, directly (Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew), indirectly (Arabic, Syriac, Roman, Cyrillic, Mongolian, perhaps Brahmic [technically an abugida]), or at least spiritually (the Georgian and Armenian alphabets have not been satisfactorily proven to be derived from Aramaic or Greek--but the Georgians and Armenians were certainly familiar with those scripts at any rate).
     
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  18. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    In terms of "bonuses that hurt them", this has to be about the most minor of cases. The odds of:
    -Meeting a CS before another civ
    -Having them decide on wanting a eureka bonus
    -Having that eureka bonus be writing

    Is pretty small overall. And in that case, presumably they would simply pick a different eureka bonus to give you, so not like you're locked out completely on it. I think I'd rather the rare chance that I start isolated enough from someone else that I can still go to campuses without delaying them waiting to see if anyone is nearby.
     
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  19. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Pretty threadbare topic.

    But could change it to meet two civ's, to get a nice Rosetta Stone/Tower of Babel vibe.
     
  20. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I didn't realize that it's theorized there's a connection between runes and Etruscan. Wikipedia says "may have," though, so I'll put it tentative. Trade connections between IVC and Sumer does lend the possibility of cultural influence like many of the others. It may not belong in either category, though. I don't know if you got the chance to read the article I posted saying it isn't writing. Brahmi may have been influenced by the IVC script or Semitic or both.
     
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