When Did the Soviet Union Fail?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Zardnaar, Jan 28, 2021.

  1. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Lake Placid for the win!
     
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  3. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Not an excuse. You wouldn't use "not everyone forgets" as an excuse for German revanchist claims over Danzig.
     
  4. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Revanchism has to be backed by something more substantial than old dusty maps.
    Preferably by support of local population. Otherwise landgrab may be reversed, either immediately or a couple decades later.
     
  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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  6. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The claim that the Second Polish Republic was a continuation of the old Kingdom of Poland is just nationalist mythologising. There was no political continuity between the two states; the one slither of continuity which remained of the old kingdom in the twentieth century was the Tsarist administration, which collapsed with the German occupation of 1915 and was never restored.

    It has as much practical merit as claiming that the Republic of Ireland is the successor to the old Gaelic high kingship.

    (Maybe a little less merit, if you consider that the Irish Free State was nominally ruled by George VI, a distant descendent of Brian Boru through the houses of Stewart and Bruce- but, ah, that's definitely off-topic.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  7. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    What a bizarre argument. Why would lack of "political" continuity in such a narrow sense even be relevant?
    EDIT: I didn't understand Birdjaguar posting a map of Polish partitions where it was eventually reduced to zero as a claim that everything at its widest extent in 18th century should have been considered "rightful Polish soil" 100+ years later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Close enough in some aspects, it seems.
     
  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Quarter Polish, actually. Grandfather speaks Polish (at least, he could back in the day) and my last name is Polish.
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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  11. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    If old land claims are just spurious nonsense because the land was lost through conquest or other takeover means in the past, then RIP indigenous people's claims, sovereignty claims, borders etc. :p
     
  12. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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  13. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    A lot of the lands the Poles wanted to reclaim were inhabited by indigenous Ukranians and others before and after they were part of the Kingdom of Poland.
    Its one thing to want to reclaim land inhabited by people who identify with your nation (although that can still cause plenty of problems), quite another to embark on projects of Greater anywhere just because at one time you were the rulers.
     
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  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    At what point in history does a group or people get to claim they are the indigenous/rightful land holders of a space? What are the criteria to be used to identify that group? How long after a conquest can those claims be ignored?
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    There no other group (remaining) making a claim on that place? :p
    Frightful implications I know. But if you want an accurate answer...
     
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  16. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I like these two paragraphs in particular:
    In this way, perhaps, Lithuania is like many other countries that spent 50 years under Soviet occupation. During this time, there was a deep freeze on the truth: Lithuanians were only allowed to talk about how many Soviet citizens were killed during World War II. References to Jewish victims were scrubbed away by the occupiers. I would like to think that if Lithuania had been a free and independent nation after World War II, it might have acknowledged its own role in the Holocaust.
    Correcting historical memory turned out to be dangerous. When I publicly questioned the official story of my grandfather’s life, I was vilified by the Lithuanian community in Chicago and in Lithuania. I was called an agent of President Vladimir Putin of Russia. Lithuanian leaders still believe their country’s identity depends on holding onto its heroes, even at the cost of the truth.


    What other "solution" exists if we assume that homogenous nation-states are "natural" and multiethnic states are some kind of abomination?
     
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  17. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    People who were born and grew up there should have more rights to claim it, than guests, recent migrants and conquerors.
    Hope you are not suggesting that Poles can come and claim Minsk as their historical land. Belarussians will be surprised.
     
  18. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Well, now we have solution to the Palestinian nation state question.... And the lesser Britain of the future....And in a few years, with proper handling, Las Vegas can have a lot more casinos to run....
     
  19. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    I'm not claiming anything in particular, just trying to figure out who can claim "ownership" of places.
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Territorial claims made by, say, the Lakota Nation against the United States are premised on the fact that it is the same Lakota Nation and the same United States which were party to the previous, violated treaties. No such continuity exists between the Second Polish Republic and previous Polish states, so there's really no analogy which can be drawn between one and the other. The new Polish Republic laid claim to the historical identity of "Poland" only on the basis that it purported to represent a distinct Polish national group occupying a territory historically known as Poland; it could not claim to have been party to any previous treaties, or to have made any territorial claims in reference to those treaties.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021

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