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When do you _not_ do an archer rush?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Gus_Smedstad, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. Gus_Smedstad

    Gus_Smedstad Warlord

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    I'm still playing on King. Which I grant you is a bit of a walk over in the mid to late game, but I've stuck with it because I still have misfires in the early game, and sometimes an AI will go into runaway even at this difficulty.

    Anyway, unless I'm fairly isolated, I find that I'm almost always going for an archer rush on my nearest neighbor. One or two warriors, 4-5 archers, with the archers doing the vast majority of the damage. With just about any civ.

    Sumeria's an exception because of warcarts, but few of the early game special melee units are strong enough to support a rush. I just tried playing Monty for the first time, and my 5 Eagle Warrior rush against nearby Greece completely stalled out because Gorgo got city walls up. While that's bad news for any Ancient era rush, it's particularly bad when you're all-melee and doing only a couple of points of wall damage with each attack.

    I think I would have done better to go with my standard mix of mostly archers, despite the strengths of the Eagle Warrior.
     
  2. gimper42

    gimper42 Warlord

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    When I play as Australia. I still gear up military units, perhaps not as quickly as I would if I were preparing for an early rush. But instead of declaring war, I do whatever I can to upset my neighbors and get them to declare on me. Then I whip out a quick carpet of doom and do what I do.

    Isolated starts, as you mentioned, use a different strategy altogether.
     
  3. Gus_Smedstad

    Gus_Smedstad Warlord

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    I started a new game with Monty, and went for 2 Eagle Warriors / 4 Archers. Oh boy, night and day.

    I think the problem is that rushing with anything other than archers is slow. It's that slinger -> archer conversion with gold that makes it much, much faster than building a bunch of Eagle Warriors.
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I still use variety but quickly fallack to slingers if need be.
     
  5. isau

    isau Deity

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    I personally think the game would benefit from eliminating the Slinger unit entirely. The game would be more balanced if you couldn't do the Slinger > Archer upgrade and actually had to hard-build Archers. It's odd, because in every other leg of the game, the upgrades are spaced very far apart. Slinger > Archer comes super quickly, and pretty much the only reason to build Slingers is for the upgrade.
     
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  6. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    You just need that last hit from Eagle Warriors. You should wear units down with arrows before.

    Later on, don't neglect the luxury bonus. They can easily pile up and giving some +5 Strength, enough to withstand Horsemen. Also, when using only melee units, go for Battering Rams to deal a huge amount of damage and nullify those walls.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The slinger upgrade brings interest in agoge, makes the start of game more complex, lets not remove such great choices
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  8. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    I hardly think it makes the beginning more complex when it isn't really a choice at all. Unless your goal, you know, isn't to win - then there is absolutely no reason not to throw on Agoge, pump out the amount of slingers to suit your needs, and upgrade them to archers with the starting cash in order to take out your nearest opponent.

    The return for this beats out virtually anything else you could do apart from not having a target to do this to. In which case, again, there is no choice.

    I would agree that Slingers should either be removed, or the upgrade cost changed. Or even make them have no upgrade, so that their use as early barb hunters/garrison units remains. As it stands right now, however, the strategy of slinger into archer is too powerful.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You miss my point @King Jason ... Agoge is many turns away and you are wanting to churn them out now. Do you go slinger builder which is probably near the right timing for craftsmenship amd therefore agoge.

    Tbh, when I play slarchers I seeem to get them before agoge making it a moot point. However there is difference in opinion out there.
     
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  10. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    The problem is that eurekas make the game too rigid. I like the basic idea of the eureka system, but as it is implemented right now, it turns the game into a chain of always *exactly* the same conditions that I always need to fullfill to get the eurekas. I *always* build 2 forts to get a certain eureka, 1 walls to get a eureka, and of course 3 slingers to get a whole lot of eurekas. That takes away a lot of individualism/different playstyles & forces a certain way to play the game on the player.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I disagree, do you always build a wonder early to get the eureka?
    I have never built 2 forts.
    There is goody huts to randomize choice
    Some eurekas are cross tech/civic, do you always grow them at the same rate?
    Do you always find that second continent or 3 CS when building your slarchers?

    You make choices and beeline stuff
     
  12. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tech-civic-chasing-eurekas-vs-beelining-high-tier.610959/

    -> The point is that eurekas are intended to "reward" the player for certain playstyles. If you settle the coast you get sailing. But what it ends up doing is to *force* certain playstyles on the player: You settle the coast specifically to get sailing. Just make eurekas more random, let's say you don't always get them, but only ~30% of the time. That would also be much more rewarding for the player, because they wouldn't really expect getting it.

    Example: I would really like to open with ~some warriors instead of slingers. Just for a change :cry: The problem is, I'm forgoing a *lot* of eurekas if I do that.
     
  13. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The only thing "forcing" a player to pursue specific eurekas is internal impulse ("Must ... take ... bonus ... argh!"). Play to your civ's strengths. Spam war carts as Gilgamesh and knock some heads. Take a couple of early cities and the techs and civics will take care of themselves. Actually build a high-adjacency campus (I know, heresy) and prioritize early monuments. The game is very forgiving of alternative play styles. Give it a try.
     
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  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nice thread, I missed that one. It does not saying anything new.

    I have built warriors first, 2 additional, then a builder, get agoge and then push slingers. There is wiggle room

    I agree with that there is a general encouragement for the eurekas but I am just saying the reality of playing is that you miss some amd if you progress in an orderly manner to get them all you can be missing stratgegies,

    For example I push naval quite often and miss the naval eureka for a musketmen to kill a unit to speed up frigates. It is just not worth me doing that if I want the naval edge... Or on deity, some naval equality, which I can the exploit.

    So I play as an individual and beat deity so I pose that it is not too rigid as you say. I just suggest you are being a little bit one sided and this game does allow the flexibility. I agree that at deity you do need to always keep one eye on the list and benefit where you can but while they do not have an incredibly difficult deity you do not have to chase the eureka. You certainly do not have to on prince, its a game of having fun amd exploring, I often play on prince and completely disobey the considered 'optimum' completely.

    I like the idea of not guaranteeing it to some degree but as per the luck thread I am not keen on too much luck early as there is enough there already and bad luck early game with a % chance missing a few eurekas can really set you back.

    I do not think we have opposing views here, just levels of how much we feel we are forced down the same lane.
     
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  15. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    That's actually what I'm doing with Gilgamesh. But I must... take... bonus... argh!

    Well, maybe I'm exaggerating a little. Of course I usually beeline either industrialization or military tradition & there are a lot of eurekas that you miss with those beelines, but they are just very strong.

    In multiplayer games a bit of luck can make your friends very happy, since they also get a chance to win against more experienced players. Ceterum censeo I should be allowed to trade eurekas with other civs.
     
  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The trouble with luck SP is it is you versus 7 (or whatever) other players.. So the odds are against you 7:1... Not the best odds to be playing.
    Yeah MP / hotseat luck can be a nice leveller

    I do not like the industrialisation rush, its just such a strong thing its hard to turn down. I think that is the one set of working eurekas that ideally should be broken because it just does turn out to be the best option at that stage.

    Interesting you take military trad over Feudalism.
     
  17. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    To be clear, I'm not saying the game isn't flexible to choice - it actually is and I love that. I just think there are still a lot of 'exploits' that are too advantageous to the player. Agoge slinger spam into archers is useful whether you're "rushing" or not. Even if you intend to war later than a rush, I can't find any reason not to set up a phase for my empire where I pump out the projected slingers I'll need using agoge with the anticipation of giving myself a battalion of cheap archers.

    Another example is pre-building workers in anticipation of Feudalism. This is something the A.I. would simply never do. Granted, from what I can tell it would appear their own cheats allow them to keep pace with such a thing, but as it stands now, I see no reason not to hard build a worker in every city at some point before Feudalism, and then have it sit in waiting. Once you hit Feudalism, your entire empire gets a burst of build charges. This doesn't prevent me from building them normally throughout the game as well, but once I see myself 20-30 turns away from Feudalism, I make sure most of my cities have a builder lined up to be built in 1 turn. If your planning is efficient enough that you're able to build them all using Ilkum, then you've effectively utilized the Public Works policy an entire two eras earlier for one round of builders.

    It just seems too efficient not to do with which means it's hard for me to "choose" to do anything else. Just like it was too efficient not to have industrustial cores amping up the production in all of your cities because factories stacked, before it was appropriately nerfed. Nobody needed to do that, but not doing it was kind of silly, and didn't really lend itself to much decision making, as much as I enjoyed planning my empire around where my industrial centers would ultimately end up.
     
  18. gimper42

    gimper42 Warlord

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    There is plenty of flexibility. Problem is people get locked into what they perceive as an optimal playstyle or an optimal tech path and then place mental blocks on themselves in regards to seeing the different avenues that are available.
     
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  19. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    No, the problem is that there are optimal playstyles that shine out above others, such as the aforementioned factory overlap. When you develop various systems in a game that is meant to allow for a variety of strategies and it becomes apparent that many people are only ever doing one specific thing, then it's cause to investigate the disparity in power of that particular strategy over others. If the factory overlap wasn't an issue, it wouldn't have been nerfed - people who liked to do it would have been left to doing it, and those who opted for 'different avenues' would have been left to those instead. However, it was simply overpowered - or if nothing else, caused a very narrow field of planning and decision making within the course of the game. Everyone that took advantage of it knew that, and it was nerfed accordingly.

    Now, whether slingers into archers is on that same level is certainly up for debate, but to suggest that those who perceive an obvious advantage in the strategy simply lack imagination is a tad silly.
     
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  20. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Well, at least they made it need more prerequisite techs now. I really like the recent tech tree changes.

    I mixed that up. I meant military science in the tech tree. Although I also do often go military tradition for warcarts.
     

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