When does humour become offensive?

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sherbz

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This is a pretty subjective topic, so should make for a good debate. The recent jokes by Jimmy Car on the holocaust prompted me to think of it. So I shall kick off with this:


Offensive? Or funny?

Personally i think its offensive. I dont see how joking about a group of people who were exterminated and suggesting it was a positive is in any way shape or form funny.
 
This was actually a lot less offensive than I thought it would be.
The tie-in with the educational component shows that he is aware of the real issues, which I think is important to see. Because you'll not mistake the joke then for being sincere.

On topic: No idea :lol:.
I think it's just personal and hard to generalize.
 
Its odd this joke is suddenly being called out as offensive.. this show has been out for a while?
 
The undertone here is that gypsies are the most persecuted group probably in the world but certainly in europe. Its the one example of where clear and open racism is politically acceptable. Ive seen politicians go to protests about traveller sites with placards saying "NO GYPSIES". And thats apparently ok. Swap "Gypsy" for "Jew" or "blacks" or "asians" though and suddenly people would have a problem. They have also been violently attacked in Italy in what was pretty much a pogrom.
 
Jewish people also often isolated and created ghettos, in a similar fashion (in rural areas) to the gypsies. But other jewish communities were very much urban and part of higher levels of society (unlike the gypsies).

As for the joke... it is a problem that you could never have him say the reverse, but some find it acceptable to say this. Personally I found the joke to be forgettable, and probably not worth it for being so edgy. At any rate, unlike jewish people now, gypsies still face a lot of discrimination (probably primarily due to ghettos and isolationism, not color).

I also find it in bad taste that this was termed "appalling holocaust joke", instead of the more logical "appalling gypsy/roma joke".
 
Well, laughter is surrender to all which is wrong that you can't fix. So, if you're feeling full of spunk, I guess that's when humor is offensive?

Yes, brits, I know I know... wording...
 
Since I spent a lot of time on The Site That Shall Not Be Named as a teen, I don't really find offense in any joke per se. Still, while I was since growing up I was quite the social libertarian, since reading about transgressive art (which offensive humor falls under) and getting a sense of the world, I've had more of a perspective on it.

I still have quite a wide view of what is allowed to be joked about, but whatever you say will be met in the world. There's a difference between the principle of speech and the principle of pragmaticality and even politeness. I can have all the right in the world to invite people over only for me to screech and poop on the table, but I should accept if they don't want to come over anymore. I have the right to poop on my table, and they have the right not to be my acquaintance. They're not worse people for not accepting everything I say and do, even if it doesn't hurt them.

More seriously than maintaining social relations, there is a sense of pragmaticality in speech. Speech is power, and speech projects power, and it can be projected in ways that hurt people. There is an ethical aspect to humor, but it mostly boils down to "how does this actually negatively affect the world"; Borat I don't find offensive, since while crude, the target of the humor is falseness and nasty undercurrents in US society. One is free to joke about whatever, but that does not guarantee people a platform or that I am not to exercise my own free speech and criticize things for being senseless. And today there's quite a bit of weaponized humor and weaponized irony whose intent is to strip people of rights. Earlier, the jokes were sincere, but since overt racism has become reasonably unacceptable in the mainstream, hate groups default to irony instead. One can joke in that manner, I guesss, but doing it publicly may relate itself to horrifying speech. Like, it is clueless to align oneself with the kind of humor utilized by dangerous people. And if you don't want to be associated with these people, perhaps stop acting like them. However ironic I might be, if I have memorabilia to Stalin, I can say it's as ironic as I want, people are not idiots for thinking something is sus.

I have no idea what to say to the video in particular. On one hand, it's clear he's being ironic about the horrors that Romani people suffered. On the other hand, most Europeans are seriously racist against Romani people, cluelessly so, while understanding racism against Jews, blacks, etc, is wrong. A joke like this can reveal such a discrepancy in people, but will the people I know that have dark views of the Romani go home after such a joke, rethinking their position? Racism against Romani is really, really ingrained in Europe.

The Jehovah's Witness thing about knocking on the wrong door like an idiot was less offensive. I didn't find it funny either though since the missionaries-are-annoying/amusing-when-they-knock-on-doors trope is so overused I don't find it funny at all.
 
It is a different basis for racism; the romani people (unlike jewish people) refuse to move away from ghettos they create themselves. This makes it literally impossible to integrate them in more levels of society (they live in their own settlements).
In the old days (before ww2) a considerable number of jewish people did the same. Particularly in rural Russia.
 
Offensive? Or funny?

I don't find Carr particularly funny to begin with, but humour can be both funny and offensive. Surely you've heard of Bob Saget and his famously offensive standup routines.

This is not a "this or that" situation. Things can be funny and offensive at the same time, and often are. It depends on your own personal sensibilities, what you find funny, and what you find offensive. For many people there is a lot overlap.

IMO it's like asking "Is this chicken dish spicy or does it taste good?". Why not both?
 
I think it's important to separate out you, or me, not feeling offense, vs. someone else feeling offense. The two can exist side-by-side without any contradictions.

The problem we have is when we start discussing what offense is "right". Which is more what this thread is getting at, imo. And unfortunately it's not something we can't discuss, because bad faith actors exist and do what they do.

So, yeah, Carr's bit was absolutely offensive. But it's not just that it was offensive, it's that he was punching down, as someone not in that group. Plenty of people can use offense well, instead of just for shock value. And it's hard to justify someone like a comedian making up for it after the fact when he's profiting off of it in the first instance.
 
I think it's important to separate out you, or me, not feeling offense, vs. someone else feeling offense. The two can exist side-by-side without any contradictions.

The problem we have is when we start discussing what offense is "right". Which is more what this thread is getting at, imo. And unfortunately it's not something we can't discuss, because bad faith actors exist and do what they do.

So, yeah, Carr's bit was absolutely offensive. But it's not just that it was offensive, it's that he was punching down, as someone not in that group. Plenty of people can use offense well, instead of just for shock value. And it's hard to justify someone like a comedian making up for it after the fact when he's profiting off of it in the first instance.

This is pretty much my way of thinking on these matters. I dont have a problem with offense carte blanche. And in some instances i think it not only funny but also educational and instructive. But Carr in this video is punching down. And for offense to be properly applied in a comedy context it works far better when punching up. Ricky Gervais is a pretty good proponent of using his offense to punch up.
 
Comedy is supposed to ridicule those in power, and to help us laugh at our own flaws.

When you're laughing at someone weaker than you that is not comedy: that is bullying.

This guy making fun of the Romani is horrible.
 
Comedy is supposed to ridicule those in power, and to help us laugh at our own flaws.

When you're laughing at someone weaker than you that is not comedy: that is bullying.

This guy making fun of the Romani is horrible.
"When you're 'punching down'" is a rule of thumb I heard to figure out when making fun of people isn't funny. I can't remember who I heard use that phrase.

An even simpler rule of thumb might be to only make fun of groups you belong to. Sarah Silverman makes cracks about Jews all the time, but Awkwafina is getting some grief for using a fake 'blaccent.'
 
"When you're 'punching down'" is a rule of thumb I heard to figure out when making fun of people isn't funny. I can't remember who I heard use that phrase.

An even simpler rule of thumb might be to only make fun of groups you belong to. Sarah Silverman makes cracks about Jews all the time, but Awkwafina is getting some grief for using a fake 'blaccent.'
Does Sarah Silverman's actions mean it's okay for everyone to make cracks about Jews?
 
Does Sarah Silverman's actions mean it's okay for everyone to make cracks about Jews?
Sorry, I guess I should have specified that Silverman is Jewish.
 
his joke aint too different than Blazing Saddles, when all the ethnic workers building the RR show up to help all they want is a homestead. The big guy says okay, but not the Irish

I'll bet people have been telling jokes like that forever
 
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