When is the earliest you take a RA?

markovnikov

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
56
I'm on Mac, so am still getting used to the new RA system, having just got it recently. One major difference seems to be that RAs are impotent in the early areas. My questions for those with more experience are:

1. after how many turns, or what techs, do you consider RAs worth making?
2. is there much point in making them without the PT of ratioalism opener?

sorry if this has been covered extensivly before. Its not always easy to find info here. ;)
 

vexing

knows
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
2,668
generally you want to sign RAs 30 turns before you'll have the porcelain tower built, rationalism open, and a "high" median tech value.

when exactly this is varies heavily dependent upon game settings. in lower difficulty games, you can achieve all those things somewhat early by filling out most but not all of civil service and theology, signing your classical era RAs, finishing those techs and bulbing education via great library.
 

Lexicus

Deity
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
27,605
Location
Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
Yes, time your RAs to pop after you build Porcelain Tower. Also try to get rid of all the smaller-cost techs before each one pops.
 

binhthuy71

Emperor
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
1,887
Location
Southern California foothills
You would be advantaged by reading Martin Alvito's excellent article "Working Over the Tech Tree." Martin is a very accomplished Civ player and his article explains, among other things, how to make the best use of RA's. The article's main focus is toward winning a Science victory but the thorough treatment of RA's makes it golden no matter what your victory strategy.
 

markovnikov

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
56
You would be advantaged by reading Martin Alvito's excellent article "Working Over the Tech Tree." Martin is a very accomplished Civ player and his article explains, among other things, how to make the best use of RA's. The article's main focus is toward winning a Science victory but the thorough treatment of RA's makes it golden no matter what your victory strategy.

I tried clicking on the link provided, but it says I dont have privileges to view.
Is the link correct, or am I just not in the cool kids club? :cry: :D
 

Lexicus

Deity
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
27,605
Location
Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
Yeah, I don't have permission either, if that makes any kind of difference...
 

binhthuy71

Emperor
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
1,887
Location
Southern California foothills
markovnikov, Lexicus, I just found out that you have to be a member of the War Academy to access the discussion thread. I joined and wrote an article for the War Academy so I was granted the magical permissions. Sorry about misleading you. Martin's article should be released into the open soon.

*Disclaimer: At 63 years of age I am the least Kewl Kid on these forums. Talk about standing the test of time, eh? :lol:
 

chazzycat

Deity
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
2,918
In my experience mostly on immortal it's generally best to time them to pop after PT/rationalism completes. You can deviate a bit from the ideal tech path (philosophy-education) and still get PT/ND this way. On deity though, the PT goes really early. If you deviate from the ideal tech path a couple earlier RAs are needed just to push through education & beat the AI to PT. In Martin's article he basically lays out these two options as "conservative" (using a couple early RAs) and "aggressive" (beelining education without RAs). So it can end up depending on how many early techs you need like masonry or iron working.
 

markovnikov

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
56
It's starting to fell like the latest patch has pretty much limited your policy options to none. Does anyone take Piety anymore, outside of a cultural game?

It feels like CiV now works like this, (at least on higher levels):

-Thou must leverage RAs heavily, least yee be left behind in the technological dust.
- To do this, thou must have the PT or Rationalism opener, or ideally both.
- Therefore, forget about the Piety tree completely unless, and only unless, thou wishes to win by culture.

This seems more limiting then the way it was previously. Although realistically speaking, every civilisation does need to embrace rationality if it is to advance, so I guess I'm ok with that. In terms of game play though, there doesn't seem to be much incentive to deviate from 'optimum strategy'.
 

joncnunn

Senior Java Wizard
Retired Moderator
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
8,621
Location
Missouri
#1: More of won't consider until I know I'll have opener to Rationalism within 30 turns.
If I succeed in getting the tower; that's going to be an automatic since the Great Scientist will be used to advance to that era.

#2 Eventually RAs would pay for themselves even without both of them, but not until much later compared to having one (or especially both)

I'm on Mac, so am still getting used to the new RA system, having just got it recently. One major difference seems to be that RAs are impotent in the early areas. My questions for those with more experience are:

1. after how many turns, or what techs, do you consider RAs worth making?
2. is there much point in making them without the PT of ratioalism opener?

sorry if this has been covered extensivly before. Its not always easy to find info here. ;)
 

vexing

knows
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
2,668
as in real life, piety goes well with warmongering.

for a science or diplo win, it is pretty obvious that rationalism is optimal. the patch hasn't changed this, though it did alter the logistics in timing things. getting to scientific revolution was always optimal.
 

markovnikov

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
56
as in real life, piety goes well with warmongering.

for a science or diplo win, it is pretty obvious that rationalism is optimal. the patch hasn't changed this, though it did alter the logistics in timing things. getting to scientific revolution was always optimal.

so much of war mongering is about having a tech advantage though. I was faced with this choice in my current game (Askia, planning on domination win), and rationalism still seemed like the better bet when I looked at the piety tree. Having said that, I am struggling with happines, so maybe I should suspend judgement.
 

vexing

knows
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
2,668
so much of war mongering is about having a tech advantage though

with any prerenaissance uu (like askia's muslim cavalry) rationalism and porcelain tower need not play a part in getting that tech advantage. even a rifle "rush" doesn't absolutely require rationalism, hagia sophia -> porcelain tower, a university scientist, and finishing liberty can provide gunpowder, metallurgy, rifling. the earlier techs can be finished with 75% ras or hard teched.
 

Lexicus

Deity
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
27,605
Location
Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
Yes, I was actually having the same issue as Askia, and went Rationalism (I already had PT). I struggled with happiness until the Order opener (+1 :c5happy: per city).
 

The Pilgrim

Deity
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
3,007
Location
Virtual reality
Yes, I was actually having the same issue as Askia, and went Rationalism (I already had PT). I struggled with happiness until the Order opener (+1 :c5happy: per city).
And that's exactly why Piety is preferable in domination games. AI will turn on you anyway and you won't have many RA partners. You don't lose too much. Late conquest still justifies Rationalism, though. BTW, as Askia you can always plop courthouses, if you don't mind the cheesiness.
 

lilnev

King
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
949
I very seldom build the PT. Deity, large maps, it goes early. And more to the point, I'd rather be conquering, and that means beelining Steel rather than Ed. I do pretty much always take Rationalism, however. And if I have the opportunity to conquer the PT, it's a high priority.

RA's, I may sign as early as the 60's (standard speed), or as late as 100-110. Depends on how strong my cash position is, and what else I might spend it on. The prime alternatives are unit upgrades and CSs with unique luxuries.
 

binhthuy71

Emperor
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
1,887
Location
Southern California foothills
RA's become increasingly more essential as you advance above King level. I would suggest careful management of your tech tree if you're going to sign a lot of RA's because although you're advancing your tech via RA's so are your AI partners.
 

Lexicus

Deity
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
27,605
Location
Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
When I say I struggled with happiness, it wasn't that big a deal because I had expanded enough that my happiness didn't matter--I was still teching more quickly than the AIs, and obviously my army was hugely powerful. I didn't do rationalism so much for the RA bonus as for the beaker bonus with trading posts (HUGE when you have a big puppet empire) and the 2 free techs from Scientific Revolution.

Rationalism also gives +1 happiness per University and Public School, so unless you have Monasteries that's the same amount of happiness as Organized Religion, though public schools and universities come later than temples and monuments.
 

vexing

knows
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
2,668
although you're advancing your tech via RA's so are your AI partners.

this is a completely unwarranted fear, especially considering the AI isn't likely to have any of the three things a player will: a strong median tech, rationalism and porcelain tower.

funny that the patch to "fix" player abused RAs just managed to make them worse for for the AI, while making them more powerful for the player once the appropriate hoops have been jumped through.
 

binhthuy71

Emperor
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
1,887
Location
Southern California foothills
this is a completely unwarranted fear, especially considering the AI isn't likely to have any of the three things a player will: a strong median tech, rationalism and porcelain tower.

funny that the patch to "fix" player abused RAs just managed to make them worse for for the AI, while making them more powerful for the player once the appropriate hoops have been jumped through.

You have far more insight into the game than I do, no doubt about it. I would observe that the AI does seem to pursue the PT and it is possible to be beaten to it. Which SP's the AI pursues are completely opaque to me. My suspicion is that any given AI civ's SP path is pretty much pre-determined and programmed to leverage its Special Ability. IF, a big "if" I admit, that's the case then you may be confronting an AI civ the does go for Rationalism.
 
Top Bottom