When Jesus born?

When Jesus born?

  • Year Zero

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Year One

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Before Christ

    Votes: 8 72.7%
  • After Christ

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
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But then you have the practicalities... do shepherds watch their flocks by night in December? Or is that just a fanciful Christmas song with no factual basis at all?
One bit of nitpicking, there. Although still quite chilly, the Levantine region is not as cold in December, nearly so, as the Great Northern Prairie both you and I hail from, and snow, while occuring, is very rare. And, in most Ancient pastoral cultures with free-range livestock, there was usually a communal watch with a shift system, of sorts, so that the flock (their very livelihood) almost always had a few watching them at all times.
 
Well, it was a question, not a statement... ;)
 
Whatever the years, they need to fit the information that we do know is true (verified by primary sources and the archaeological record), and in the case of Jesus' birth, there's also the question of exactly what was the Star of Bethlehem, anyway? Supernovae have been ruled out. Current speculation pegs it as an unusually bright planetary conjunction. But then you have the practicalities... do shepherds watch their flocks by night in December? Or is that just a fanciful Christmas song with no factual basis at all?

I don't think there's any good reason to suppose that the Star of Bethlehem is based on any real astronomical event, any more than there is to suppose that Jesus' death was marked by three hours of darkness. Indeed it always puzzles me when people try to find naturalistic explanations for the Star of Bethlehem, given that according to Matthew this star led the magi to Bethlehem and the place where Jesus was born. Do people who think it was a planetary conjunction or a comet think that God sent it to lead the magi to the baby Jesus? In which case, why try to find a naturalistic explanation at all? It's obviously a legendary motif. The same goes for angels descending on shepherds, people bursting into song at the drop of a hat, and all of the other unlikely events of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke. This is also why the common claim that Jesus was born in the spring (because of the shepherds) has no basis in fact either. He could have been born at any time of year for all we know.

Augustus was Emperor until 14 BCE. Tiberius was Emperor from 14 BCE to 37 BCE. Pontius Pilate was Governor of Judea from c. 26 BCE to c. 37 BCE. So the relevant dates fall inside this range.

I think you mean "CE" for all those dates!
 
I don't think there's any good reason to suppose that the Star of Bethlehem is based on any real astronomical event, any more than there is to suppose that Jesus' death was marked by three hours of darkness. Indeed it always puzzles me when people try to find naturalistic explanations for the Star of Bethlehem, given that according to Matthew this star led the magi to Bethlehem and the place where Jesus was born. Do people who think it was a planetary conjunction or a comet think that God sent it to lead the magi to the baby Jesus? In which case, why try to find a naturalistic explanation at all? It's obviously a legendary motif. The same goes for angels descending on shepherds, people bursting into song at the drop of a hat, and all of the other unlikely events of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke. This is also why the common claim that Jesus was born in the spring (because of the shepherds) has no basis in fact either. He could have been born at any time of year for all we know.



I think you mean "CE" for all those dates!

Since I've always found it weird that none of the supposed authors of the gospels wrote anything down until decades later, the only parts of this whole thing I'm prepared to accept is what's verified through primary sources or the archaeological record. We know Herod, Augustus, and Pilate existed.

The Star of Bethlehem inspired a bunch of Christmas songs and one of Arthur C. Clarke's most well-known short stories. There's even an old Star Trek fanfic in which Uhura has a crisis of faith when she discovers that an ancient civilization was wiped out just to give a bunch of people on Earth a "sign".


Thanks for pointing that out. I'll edit my post.
 
Since I've always found it weird that none of the supposed authors of the gospels wrote anything down until decades later, the only parts of this whole thing I'm prepared to accept is what's verified through primary sources or the archaeological record. We know Herod, Augustus, and Pilate existed.
Why do you think that's weird? Bear in mind that the early Christians all thought the world was going to end imminently, I don't think it's very surprising that they didn't bother to write things down for posterity until it became clear that this wasn't actually the case.
 
There have been many times throughout the past two millennia when people were sure the world would end soon. They still wrote things down.
 
Bear in mind that the early Christians all thought the world was going to end imminently
Well, Paul and some of his immediate followers did. I don't know if any verified statement that ALL early Christians did can be found.

Since I've always found it weird that none of the supposed authors of the gospels wrote anything down until decades later,
Let's be fair. The only central, liturgical religious writings that is strongly claimed by the religion in question to be written at the time contempory to events as they were unfolding, and directly by the founder of the religion, is the Quran (and even that had a notable portion dealing with centuries-old retrospective). This is not an issue at all remotely unique to Christianity.
 
I never claimed it was unique to Christianity. But this thread isn't about the other religions.

At the time that this 3-year ministry was going on, did the apostles have the sense of "Hey, we're creating a new religion!" or did they just have the sense of "We're on a mission to learn and share insights of this smart guy we're following, and it's the adventure of a lifetime"?

We know from warpus' travel threads that people who travel and seek new information and experiences tend to write about them, keeping notes as they go, and he's certainly not waiting decades to record everything. I used to keep what I called my "trip diary" of our family's travels around BC and Washington. People on personal journeys, whether they're physically traveling or just contemplating in their own minds don't tend to wait decades to communicate about it. They talk about it or write it down as it's happening.

Were all the apostles literate? Maybe some weren't. But some were, and I find it strange that not one of them wrote anything down during the time period when this amazing adventure was actually going on.
 
I never claimed it was unique to Christianity. But this thread isn't about the other religions.

At the time that this 3-year ministry was going on, did the apostles have the sense of "Hey, we're creating a new religion!" or did they just have the sense of "We're on a mission to learn and share insights of this smart guy we're following, and it's the adventure of a lifetime"?

We know from warpus' travel threads that people who travel and seek new information and experiences tend to write about them, keeping notes as they go, and he's certainly not waiting decades to record everything. I used to keep what I called my "trip diary" of our family's travels around BC and Washington. People on personal journeys, whether they're physically traveling or just contemplating in their own minds don't tend to wait decades to communicate about it. They talk about it or write it down as it's happening.

Were all the apostles literate? Maybe some weren't. But some were, and I find it strange that not one of them wrote anything down during the time period when this amazing adventure was actually going on.
There seems a degree of uncertainty, and even debate among scholars, on whether or not Christ's Ministry and the Apostles' travel were viewed by them, in the way, as, "starting a new religion," in the way we see it today. Religious innovation in Ancient days weren't viewed in the same light - within, and certainly from without, the group in question - as they are today. We aren't talking about the Church of Scientology, Heaven's Gate, Wicca, Ekankar, or the Moonies, here, in general viewpoint...

Certainly, it's also very debatable whether or not Mani or the Buddha and their followers saw themselves as going out and, "making a new religion," under a similar viewpoint.

And, also, to address your other point, over 90% of people in Antiquity who were not part of a nomadic culture by nature did not get to travel very far from where they were born in their lifetime. So, it was a big prvilege, and if one used evengalizing as a reason to indulge in it, well...
 
I suppose Matthew and Levi would have been literate, assuming they were really tax collectors, but I doubt most of the apostles were, given that they were fisherman.

There’s no reason to think the ministry lasted for three years. If you accept John’s chronology then it was a little over two years, but there’s no reason to accept that. The Synoptics give the impression of a few months at most. At any rate there’s nothing strange about people in a largely illiterate society not writing down diaries of such events. It may indeed be the case that people today commonly do so, but that was not the case in the the very different culture of antiquity. I can’t think of any comparable situation where people wrote journals of their experiences at the time. Even the disciples of Socrates, who were certainly literate, only committed their memories of him to writing after his death. The closest we find to the sort of personal accounts you mention is war accounts by people such as Xenophon and Julius Caesar.

And plenty of people do not keep such accounts even today. I’ve never kept any kind of journal and I’ve been on plenty of journeys, both physical and the other kind. I’ve no interest whatsoever in doing so.
 
I suppose Matthew and Levi would have been literate, assuming they were really tax collectors, but I doubt most of the apostles were, given that they were fisherman.

There’s no reason to think the ministry lasted for three years. If you accept John’s chronology then it was a little over two years, but there’s no reason to accept that. The Synoptics give the impression of a few months at most. At any rate there’s nothing strange about people in a largely illiterate society not writing down diaries of such events. It may indeed be the case that people today commonly do so, but that was not the case in the the very different culture of antiquity. I can’t think of any comparable situation where people wrote journals of their experiences at the time. Even the disciples of Socrates, who were certainly literate, only committed their memories of him to writing after his death. The closest we find to the sort of personal accounts you mention is war accounts by people such as Xenophon and Julius Caesar.

And plenty of people do not keep such accounts even today. I’ve never kept any kind of journal and I’ve been on plenty of journeys, both physical and the other kind. I’ve no interest whatsoever in doing so.
The rate of literacy in the Levant in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages has also been debated. Jewish and Islamic cultures had promoted long campaigns of literacy in their cultuures, but how far they go back is unclear.
 
There seems a degree of uncertainty, and even debate among scholars, on whether or not Christ's Ministry and the Apostles' travel were viewed by them, in the way, as, "starting a new religion," in the way we see it today. Religious innovation in Ancient days weren't viewed in the same light - within, and certainly from without, the group in question - as they are today. We aren't talking about the Church of Scientology, Heaven's Gate, Wicca, Ekankar, or the Moonies, here, in general viewpoint...

I wouldn't include Wicca with the others. They're cults. I've been acquainted with some people who were into Wicca, and from what I observed, it's not a cult.

And, also, to address your other point, over 90% of people in Antiquity who were not part of a nomadic culture by nature did not get to travel very far from where they were born in their lifetime. So, it was a big prvilege, and if one used evengalizing as a reason to indulge in it, well...

As I said, it's an adventure. People like to remember adventures, as they have new experiences that they can't get in whatever village they normally live in.

I suppose Matthew and Levi would have been literate, assuming they were really tax collectors, but I doubt most of the apostles were, given that they were fisherman.

There’s no reason to think the ministry lasted for three years. If you accept John’s chronology then it was a little over two years, but there’s no reason to accept that. The Synoptics give the impression of a few months at most. At any rate there’s nothing strange about people in a largely illiterate society not writing down diaries of such events. It may indeed be the case that people today commonly do so, but that was not the case in the the very different culture of antiquity. I can’t think of any comparable situation where people wrote journals of their experiences at the time. Even the disciples of Socrates, who were certainly literate, only committed their memories of him to writing after his death. The closest we find to the sort of personal accounts you mention is war accounts by people such as Xenophon and Julius Caesar.

And plenty of people do not keep such accounts even today. I’ve never kept any kind of journal and I’ve been on plenty of journeys, both physical and the other kind. I’ve no interest whatsoever in doing so.

People don't necessarily keep journals so other people can read them. Warpus generously shares his photos, videos, and notebook entries with us in his travel threads, but the only person who has ever read my trip diary is me. People who keep journals usually do so for their own benefit, as a way to remember the things they saw, experienced, and thought.

I just keep seeing and hearing the "3 years" reference for the length of time this is all said to have taken. It's not something I'm going to argue about, as long as it's set during the wider time frame (reign of Tiberius, during Pontius Pilate's governorship).

As for literacy... that's a good point. How could illiterate fishermen have written the Gospels (I suppose they could have learned, or dictated them to someone else). It's just odd - and I won't apologize for this perception - that out of all the people connected to this "ministry", that NOBODY kept any written account of ANY of it while it was happening.

I can't even remember all the previous conversations I've had today (it's currently just after 3 pm here), let alone conversations from 40 years ago (I remember a few, but not enough to write a religious text based on them).


BTW, @Plotinus... what do you make of someone who keeps insisting that the world is only 2000 years old, yet also insists that she's Christian? She's BS!C for a number of reasons, but I can't wrap my head around someone with this notion.
 
I wouldn't include Wicca with the others. They're cults. I've been acquainted with some people who were into Wicca, and from what I observed, it's not a cult.
To clarify, I wasn't referring to, "wonky cults," (I didn't use the term, "cult,"") but whole new seaparate rellgions that aren't just new sects of others (or I could have included the Mormons, Branch Davidian, the People's Temple, the Church of Christian Science, the Jehoovah's Witnesses, the Taliban, the Hari Krishna, the Alhambra, the Falun Gong, etc.) - basically, those in recent times that view themselves as founding a whole new religion rather than seeing themselves as making a sect of an established one (usually self-perceived as reforming the established one from perceived corruption, apostacy, or falling from the path) to take their place. I do admit, most of the choices in both lists I listed are kind of, "culty," - but that seems to moreso refect the tendency of the day and age, I suppose.

As I said, it's an adventure. People like to remember adventures, as they have new experiences that they can't get in whatever village they normally live in.
This much is definitely true. And an adventure doesn't have to be devoid of a higher purpose, certainly. ;)

BTW, @Plotinus... what do you make of someone who keeps insisting that the world is only 2000 years old, yet also insists that she's Christian? She's BS!C for a number of reasons, but I can't wrap my head around someone with this notion.
That's not even a Bliblical literalist (they believe the world is like 6000+ years old, I think). Of course, I've seen a few people online who've used the term, "in 2023 (or current calendar year spoken in) years of CIVILIZATION," or, even rarer but more ridiculous, believe the United States is 2023 (or current calendar year spoken in) years old as a nation. :confused:
 
The Taliban aren't really a sect in any sense of the term, more of an Islamist group (with nationalist tendencies) that wants to establish an Islamic state in Afghanistan
Their beliefs deviate extremely from the orthodox standards and doctrines of both the Sunni and Shi'a Sects that they're treated like a culty sect by the rest of the Islamic World - EVEN by other Radical Islamist Extremist groups.
 
Their beliefs deviate extremely from the orthodox standards and doctrines of both the Sunni and Shi'a Sects that they're treated like a culty sect by the rest of the Islamic World - EVEN by other Radical Islamist Extremist groups.
While in some cases their interpretation is rather extreme, their beliefs are mostly in line with orthodox Islamic thought. Of course, their doctrines will differ radically from that of the Shia; the Shia follow a completely different legal school and their approach towards the sources of Shariah is also different from that of the Sunni. As for other Radical Islamist Extremist Groups, most of those are Salafists, who are ideologically opposed to the Taliban, and are not mainstream at all (though their legal schools may intersect with that of the Taliban).
 
While in some cases their interpretation is rather extreme, their beliefs are mostly in line with orthodox Islamic thought. Of course, their doctrines will differ radically from that of the Shia; the Shia follow a completely different legal school and their approach towards the sources of Shariah is also different from that of the Sunni. As for other Radical Islamist Extremist Groups, most of those are Salafists, who are ideologically opposed to the Taliban, and are not mainstream at all (though their legal schools may intersect with that of the Taliban).
I do have further retorts and counter-points I could make, but that would sharply veer into OT territory, and immensely segue from the thread at hand, but I will not set foot in that cesspool of a subforum again.
 
As for literacy... that's a good point. How could illiterate fishermen have written the Gospels (I suppose they could have learned, or dictated them to someone else). It's just odd - and I won't apologize for this perception - that out of all the people connected to this "ministry", that NOBODY kept any written account of ANY of it while it was happening.
Well of course all the Gospels are anonymous, so nobody knows who wrote them. There's no reason to think any of them was written by someone who was actually there though - quite the reverse, given that they appear to be based on earlier oral traditions.

I can't even remember all the previous conversations I've had today (it's currently just after 3 pm here), let alone conversations from 40 years ago (I remember a few, but not enough to write a religious text based on them).

The thing you have to bear in mind is that people in antiquity didn't think like us, or act like us. This is particularly so when it comes to writing. Even literate people were often suspicious of the value of writing. Plato's Phaedrus has a famous passage where he argues that the written word is a pale imitation of the spoken word and fundamentally unreliable. And even literate people valued memory over reading. It was usual for people to memorise entire texts, even if they were literate; this is what enabled expert exegetes such as Paul to interpret one passage in the light of another, because they had memorised them. Jerome memorised the entire Bible by heart, a feat which was not as unusual as you'd think. So yes, if Jesus' ministry were happening today, you might think it odd that none of the dozens or even hundreds of disciples that he apparently had didn't write anything down about it. But that doesn't apply in antiquity, because people were simply more used to relying on memory, even if they were literate.

The only text I can think of off-hand from antiquity that we would consider a "journal", kept solely for the author's own use, is Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, which is striking simply because of its rarity. There are campaign journals such as Alexander the Great's, but they were kept because they were needed for logistics, not because the writers thought there was intrinsic value in writing them down. Another possible example is The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicity, which is apparently based on a journal by Perpetua, but here again she was presumably writing this with an eye to the edification of her community. The most personal writings that we eve get from antiquity are usually letters rather than journals.

This is perhaps partly because people read more slowly in antiquity than we do today. Punctuation and even word spacing as we know them today didn't exist. writinglookedlikethis And that meant that you couldn't scan a text and quickly take in each word as a unit as we do today. You had to speak it out loud and work out the words as you sounded them. Hence the famous passage in Augustine's Confessions where he says that Ambrose was so clever he could read without moving his lips. Reading, even in private, was a performative act and a slow one compared to how we read today. So it's little wonder that people didn't typically keep journals or indeed write at all unless they were specifically intending to send a message to somebody else (or to write a book for general circulation), quite apart from issues of the cost and availability of writing materials. They simply did not have the writing-based culture that we do.

BTW, @Plotinus... what do you make of someone who keeps insisting that the world is only 2000 years old, yet also insists that she's Christian? She's BS!C for a number of reasons, but I can't wrap my head around someone with this notion.

I'm with you on that. I can't understand how someone could be so unaware of the basic facts about their own religion.
 
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