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When people stop talking....guberment stops working

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by GoodGame, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    It's looking very likely that the government will shutdown since Obama and all didn't reach an agreement on the US Federal budget and other time constraints put the deadline as Tuesday night.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/government-shutdown-2011/index.html

    Is raising your demands by $7 billion a compromise, or crafty salesmanship when you think you have the upperhand?

    Who will this (voters' memory of the shutdown) help/hurt politically in 2012?

    Is this a moral victory for the Tea-party? Does it show they have extra influence over the Repubs and politics in general?



    I see it as a brilliant strategy to both look like appealing to the T-party base (cutting spending) while also trying to spoil Obama's re-election bid because on one hand they can claim he couldn't keep the government running, and on the other hand they can try to get a compromise from Obama with may hurt him later with his own consituency.

    Of course, what if it increases voter apathy ("they're just playing politics without doing anything) or hurts the repubs non-T party base (i.e. people put off by brinkmanship).
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...mselves/2011/04/04/AFxlwPiC_blog.html?hpid=z1

    If this is a brilliant repub strategy, is it so brilliant that it's impossible and comes back to bite them by alienating more of their base than they bolster?

    Note: the shutdown isn't absolutely certain now...Friday is the true deadline, but last night was the projected reasonable time for compromise unless something extraordinary happens over the next couple of days.
     
  2. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Well if the Democrats can't find the money to cut in all the bloody entitlements they so dearly love, that's on them if the government grinds to a halt. You all know who to properly blame. Obama and Co.
     
  3. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    Must be nice to be a Republican congressperson. When stuff falls to pieces, just blame Obama!

    It's weird that I keep hearing the GOPers talk about "personal responsibility," but see so few of their politicians actually demonstrating any responsibility at all. :)
     
  4. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

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    Okay, this was funny for a month or so, but now it's time for our Congress to settle down and start acting like adults.
     
  5. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Well, its an age old adage in Washington......whatever happens under the Presidents term, the President is resposible for....good or bad.

    The Dems hold the office of the President and control the Senate. Not sure how you can law blame solely on the GOP for this one.
     
  6. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    The democrats don't understand the debt needs to be trimmed by trillions, not billions. The democrats need to agree to republican cuts. It's that simple.
     
  7. Quackers

    Quackers The Frog

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    When does government work?
    When was the last time you thought to yourself - "ah that was a REALLY good law they just passed!".
     
  8. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    @Mobboss

    Answer this. In February, Boehner stated that cuts of 30 billion (ish) would be his goal for FY 2011. The current deal, supposedly, was 33 billion. Apparently, now, two months later, the goalpost has moved.

    Both sides are to blame. The Dems should have passed an FY11 budget last fall. The Reps are pretty much going shutdown at this point. Caught in the middle, all the US federal government workers, including those in the military. This shutdown nonsense has devastated productivity and led to many experienced folks leaving, creating a brain drain. But I suppose downsizing by getting rid of effective workers is a solid plan.

    Sigh.

    (Note: Supposedly I will be declared "essential" so I will still be working regardless of a shutdown0
     
  9. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    I know you and Form express your mutual adoration by taking each other's statements and twisting them into something wildly different, but you don't need to do that with me, Mobby. While I'm flattered by your interest, I just don't think it would work out. Besides, you know how jealous Form gets. ;)

    I know this is just politics as usual in America. Each side will use every crisis to try and make the other look bad, and will refuse to take any responsibility for anything. It's great entertainment, but pretty lousy governance. I just don't see politics as a team sport where you cheer for one side and hate on the other, regardless of their positions or the issues at hand.
     
  10. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

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    What makes this so silly, from the wonk side (as opposed to the political side), is that we don't strictly need actual cuts in programs; what we need is cuts in the projected growth rate of programs. You favorite programs can still be funded, and their funding can increase every year, but it's the rate of increase that needs to come down.

    I see a lot of posturing over FY2011 but little talk (aside from the Ryan plan) about the next ten years, which is where the *really* hard decisions come in.

    edit: in fairness, I do see the need to return levels of spending to their historical baseline trends with some swiftness, perhaps not this year, but by 2013, and then work on growth rates from that baseline. 2008-09/stimulus-level funding should not be positioned as the new baseline; that's disingenuous on a variety of counts.
     
  11. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    Hey Integral,

    You should know that facts get in the way of good posture.
     
  12. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    It's a sad fact we all prefer to just back and kick the burden down to future generations rather than get off our asses and do the hard labor ourself. Look at the sorry state of the environment as much as finances. All the result of "oh I won't be around to see it :3"

    Which is odd; I'd think caring for your child's future is a major part of loving them, isn't that why every good parent disciplines the child who does poorly in school?

    --

    I wish something good would come out of this but obviously nothing will. Greed has ravaged our society and none of us are willing to give up our benefits. I want low taxes. You want a free education. He wants a gigantic military. They want free healthcare. The list goes on. Society truly is built on all of us trying to screw everyone else over, and will be the cause of America's fall as much as it was its rise.

    "I want to cut the deficit" is pure lies, only used to justify cutting your opponents' pet programs and then redirecting the funds at your own. "I'll cut welfare! ...and conveniently surge the army 50%.. :mischief:" "I'll raise taxes! ...but then raise the budget even more... :mischief:"

    Any common ground that can be achieved by the ordinary man is torn apart by political rhetoric(cutting the nuclear arsenal leaves us "vulnerable.") or just doesn't amount to enough. Cutting federal wages 1000 per person saves 2-3 billion dollars but that's hardly groundbreaking as nice as the idea is.

    Honestly? I can see why Americans gave up caring. It's a vicious cycle of apathy creating more apathy.
     
  13. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    You're not looking at it right. It isn't exactly the amount spent here that is the issue. It is what is being spent on what. The Republicans are choosing a collection of cuts that will hurt real people, for negligible effect on the real fiscal problem. This will hurt the poor, it will hurt the middle class, it will hurt the environment, it will hurt consumers, it will hurt labor, it will hurt the economy, and it will hurt the Democrats. But it will not be a real solution to the problem.

    If you want a real solution to the problem, step one is ending the Bush tax cuts. If they are not doing that, then they are not serious about the deficits. The deficits cannot be cured with cuts. Not alone.

    This isn't a real attempt at solving the deficit. This is class warfare and partisan hackery.


    A little late for that :)


    Well to be fair, some programs really need to go away. But that's not really what's being talked about. Or at least not the right ones.

    Talking about dealing with the growth projections brings us back to health care. And simply trying to cut money without making structural reforms is pretty much either pointless or is going to hurt a lot of people.

    In the short run I'll believe the Republicans are serious about the deficit when they raise taxes. In the long run I'll believe they are serious when they put a real health care reform bill on the table.
     
  14. Leonel

    Leonel Breakfast Connoisseur

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    It could end up like the shut down of 1995 when Gingrich let it slip that the reason he started the shut down was because Clinton made him sit in the back of the plane, which probably won Clinton his second term.

     
  15. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

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    I agree. The Republicans are in a win-win situation here. Their demands are so outrageous that no administration can possibly accept them, which may cause the government to fail more, which the Republicans also want, because they can then convincingly blame the President, who is a Democrat, of causing a national crisis. And, of course, if the Democrats do acquiesce, that's also a Republican victory.

    It's been said for quite some time that this has long been the Republican strategy. They are quite keen for the nation to get worse and more desperate so as to be given license to enact their stranger and stranger policies.
     
  16. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    Nano,

    Disagree that it's win-win for the Reps. I think it's more like a lose-lose for both sides.
     
  17. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Then, in order to block that strategy, you should make sure a government shutdown doesn't happen.
     
  18. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Hmmm. Doesnt anyone remember Harry Reid saying that the war in Iraq is lost?

    What you accuse the GOP of right now are simply the same politics the Dems were playing when GWB was in office.

    What Obama doesnt realize here is how he would win is if he approved the GOP plan, balanced the budget or even managed to pay off a bit of the debt, by working with them, the economy would get better, and voila, he would be sitting pretty for a nice re-election campaign.

    In other words, Obama isnt learning the lesson Bill Clinton learned and most likely will pay for it.

    Sure, its a lose-lose for both sides, but who controls most of our Government stands to lose the most.....i.e. the Democrats.
     
  19. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought Deity

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    I wouldn't mind shutting down all the government programs for a year to pay off the US debt.
     
  20. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    Yeah. Not happening. Shut down the non-Mil discretionary side and that's what , 12% of government spending. We would still add debt. You do know there are things like Medicare and Social Security and what-not? Plus, I'm sure shutting down the military for a year would have no effect on their readiness.

    Asisine comment gets asinine response.
     

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