[BTS] When someone vassals your wartime enemy...

[guermantes]

I am winning my 1-on-1 war with Alex when he with one city left vassals to megasuperpower Suleiman who declares on me. Now I am toast and probably wont win my first ever victory on Emperor. :-( :-(

But I seem to remember other games where the same kind of situation ended up with a forced peace treaty in the ongoing war rather than a DOW. Is there some randomness to this whether war is declared or not, or does it depend on whether Suleiman is at war already with Alex or not?

 

[Anysense]

Is there some randomness to this whether war is declared or not, or does it depend on whether Suleiman is at war already with Alex or not?

When the civ you are at war with capitulates to another peace is forced with all other civ they were at war with. But when they peace-vassal to somebody their new master will declare war on their every enemy. You need to be careful with these matters unless you powerful enough not to care. Probably, make begs or demands or bribes to make sure that no strong civ can vassalize your enemy.

 

[guermantes]

Probably, make begs or demands or bribes to make sure that no strong civ can vassalize your enemy.

What kind of begs or bribes would that be? Are you talking about bribing Suleiman to start a war somewhere else so he wont be willing to take on Alex, och to sever trading ties with Alex so as to create animosity between them? Or are you thinking of something else?

 

[AcaMetis]

When an AI does the "vassal to another AI who DoWs you" thing they're mechanically bribing that AI to go to war with you in return for them becoming that AI's vassal. Everything you can do to prevent an AI from normally declaring war on you - bribing them into a different war (can't be bribed because "we have enough on our hands right now"), them liking you enough to not be bribed into war with you, begging/demanding something to force a 10 turn peace treaty or accepting one of their demands that enforces a 10 turn peace treaty (not all demands will do this, mind), etc. - will prevent an AI you're smashing from being able to vassal to someone else at the last minute.

 

[lymond]

A beg will create a peace treaty between you and that civ. They can't declare on you. So that can be a preemptive measure. (If I recall I think that blocks the cat you are at war with from peace vassaling as well, as the mechanic is tied to the war declaration). Or as others say, tie potential masters up in another war via bribing.

Also, it is important to know each leader. What they will and will not do relative to your relations with them. If an AI is pleased with you and can't declare at pleased, then they are out of the equation. (Note: If you have your own vassal(s) that can change the equation)

Another thing to keep in mind is don't let mega-superpowers be a thing.

 

[ArchGhost]

I am winning my 1-on-1 war with Alex when he with one city left vassals to megasuperpower Suleiman who declares on me. Now I am toast and probably wont win my first ever victory on Emperor. :-( :-(

But I seem to remember other games where the same kind of situation ended up with a forced peace treaty in the ongoing war rather than a DOW. Is there some randomness to this whether war is declared or not, or does it depend on whether Suleiman is at war already with Alex or not?

Two types of vassals:

Peace (or willing) vassal: the small AI "trades" vassal status to the big AI freely, who assumes the war status of their vassal at the time. As such it can be used as a sort of bribe to pull the big guy into war, and happens a lot when beating on AIs until the breaking point. There are no size requirements, though vassals have to like their master (generally, check Know Your Enemy thread for specific thresholds) and they will tend to only do it when weaker in soldier power by a good margin.

The easiest way to avoid it as a possibility is to eliminate prospective candidates from taking the small AI in, through the various methods already discussed upthread like putting them in other wars, even if it's against the same small AI you are attacking, or begging/demanding for enforced peace treaties. Also because the vassal more or less has to like the potential master, you can foster animosity to block peace vassals too, though it's not as surefire as just getting any potential master into a war as AIs will (almost) never declare another while already at war outside of specific tomfoolery with the AP or if they were already plotting over a refused demand.


Capitulates (unwilling): small AI knuckles under to an aggressor who gains necessary war success (net of +40, gotten through killing units and taking cities) against them and who meets the size requirements (>= 50% land or pop). Not sure the size requirement applies to AIs with certainty, but you can absolutely cap an AI yourself simply by having the pop and war success alone even if you can't get the land size. The capitulate immediately assumes the war status of their master.


Summary is:
If you are both at War with Alex and the war ends with him vassaled and forced peace, it's because Alex capitulated to him instead of you. Alex assumes Suleiman's war status, which is NO WAR with you, and thus you are forced into peace with Alex and nothing else happens, no DoW from Suleiman.. This can be jarring sometimes as the other attacking AI can do a lot less work that you but the punching bag will still rather vassal to the other guy than you. To which the learned lesson is to generally take vassals when you can before this becomes the outcome.

If Suleiman is NOT at war with Alex, Alex caps to him and Suleiman DoWs on you, it's because Alex "peace" vassaled to Suleiman, who took it as a bribe to attack you.
The biggest punch in the face is that Alex can just leave the arrangement more or less at will, even while the war is going on (though it is considerably less likely while you are still at war with him) and you're still stuck with Suleiman coming for you.

 

[Gumbolt]

Of course you have to be at pleased with the ai to beg. Does the Ai need to have borders with the other Ai to be a vassal. I remember something about an 8 tile rule before they will vassal.

The biggest danger is alphabet. Once Ai have this they can use it to bribe other ai to go to war with you. So forcing peace deals early on in war is always a good move. Keeping ai at pleased or friendly is too.

I don't think a friendly AI would attack you or be able to take your war target as a vassal? Pends on the AI. Especially Catherine.

 

[AcaMetis]

I don't think a friendly AI would attack you or be able to take your war target as a vassal? Pends on the AI. Especially Catherine.

The 8 land tile rule is for whether an AI is considered a land target. I don't think AIs have to be land targets to vassal to one another, but don't quote me on that.

If an AI starts plotting when they're not Friendly, or when you've got vassals that bring their actual attitude towards you low enough, or something else along those lines, even Gandhi could potentially DoW you at friendly. War bribes are more safe, since only Catherine will accept a bribe to attack someone she's Friendly with, and even then only if she's Friendly with the person doing the bribing.

 

[dankok8]

From my experience an AI that is willing to peacevassal is also willing to capitulate. Peacevassaling often happens to me when I try to finish off a crippled AI instead of just capitulating them.