When to build a 5th city?

[voek]

Hi,

One of the popular openings is Traditional 4 city (obviously beceause of the 4 city free bonuses). I wonder when you consider settling a 5th city. Offcourse, I assume you still have good space for one.

Since it hammpers tech and getting policies there is a big downside for placing an extra city.

So when yould you settle a 5th city?
For example, when you gain at least 2 luxs? Or only when you need oil or coal and can't get it by CS's?

 

[katfish]

Hi,

One of the popular openings is Traditional 4 city (obviously beceause of the 4 city free bonuses). I wonder when you consider settling a 5th city. Offcourse, I assume you still have good space for one.

Since it hammpers tech and getting policies there is a big downside for placing an extra city.

So when yould you settle a 5th city?
For example, when you gain at least 2 luxs? Or only when you need oil or coal and can't get it by CS's?

Why would i build it? Ill just go ahead and take it.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

I will build a fifth city is there is a worthwhile spot, with a unique luxury and lots of food. If there is such a spot, I will build it ASAP.

But often the AI takes all the good spots before I even get a fourth city out.

 

[Aaron90495]

I will build a fifth city is there is a worthwhile spot, with a unique luxury and lots of food. If there is such a spot, I will build it ASAP.

But often the AI takes all the good spots before I even get a fourth city out.

This. It's often a fight (either metaphorically or literally, take your pick) to get a good FOURTH city location. So yeah, if there's a good fifth city location and I don't think it'll send me into Unhappiness problems, I'll take it. But that usually doesn't happen.

 

[fyar]

I think this question is too open-ended to give a universal answer. Sometimes the answer is never. Sometimes it's as soon as you have the happiness. There are way too many other factors to answer with such a broad response. I would instead list those factors which I take into account:

1. Do I have the happiness to build it without stunting my growth?
2. Are there luxuries there to offset any new unhappiness?
3. Will settling there anger my neighbors?
4. Is the location defensible?
5. Are there strategic resources I need there?
6. Do I need this city for science (a mountain with lots of wheat would be nice)? For production (hills/forest)? For culture (don't have enough slots for my great works/artifacts)? For a military base from which to launch an invasion?

As you can see there are just way too many factors for me to consider to give you a blanket response. I prefer to play it this way anyway, where you consider all those factors before making a big decision like founding a new city, rather than trying to play the game formulaically (always build your nth city on turn x).

Maybe this isn't the answer you were looking for, but I hope it helps.

 

[FrostK]

[Considering tradition]

Well, I usually try to rush 4 cities, so I am lack of happiness.If u can build 5 good cities before ~70-80 turn, remain at positive happiness and simultaneously focus food [I mean here that u build ligrary/granary/shrine and only later colosseum, if needed] - do it. If u can build 7 or 8 - do it.

The problem is that u cant in general - lack of different luxs, lack of space or lack of safe space. If u play on Deity or Immortal I really doupt that placing 5th city even on nice location, but which is hard to protect, worth it.

Building cities after turn 100 usually dont worth it.
Of course, there exceptions - i.e. for Isabella you should place cities near good wonders, turn 100 or 130 doesnt really matter.

 

[Matthew.]

If the plan is to go for less but taller cities, I'd consider placing down a 5th for map control.

 

[kb27787]

only when you see something called a "fountain of youth"
otherwise, NEVER. A civ with 20 happiness gets golden ages twice as fast as a civ with 10 (and quite often 5 cities will be hovering in single-digit happiness the whole early to midgame), and golden ages are +20% to everything except science, and more than +20% to gold which is pretty much close to having a 5th anyway.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Generally you would like to have jungle cities for science after universities, so they're planted later (probably as a 4th, not 5th, though). Otherwise, maybe you'd want oil, coal, aluminium or uranium, if there are spots still available. In later eras, you're a bit less luxury-dependent, so it's just a matter of planting, buying whatever you need (walls and castles, certainly) and sending food caravans if you want them to grow (as if the city is made for science).

 

[Matthew.]

^
False reasoning. Adding a city can break even on happiness, and unless you are trying to abuse them, Golden Age's don't last all that long. I agree with the general reasoning that adding a city just for the sake of adding a city may be hurting you, but as long as you are smart about it you can still expand and get just as many Golden Ages.

 

[fyar]

only when you see something called a "fountain of youth"
otherwise, NEVER. A civ with 20 happiness gets golden ages twice as fast as a civ with 10 (and quite often 5 cities will be hovering in single-digit happiness the whole early to midgame), and golden ages are +20% to everything except science, and more than +20% to gold which is pretty much close to having a 5th anyway.

What if you could have a 5th city AND 20 happiness? It's not that unreasonable to have a new luxury or two in that city; add some happiness buildings and the happiness difference doesn't have to be 10.

Edit: Matthew beat me to it.

 

[Carl5872]

Hi,

One of the popular openings is Traditional 4 city (obviously beceause of the 4 city free bonuses). I wonder when you consider settling a 5th city. Offcourse, I assume you still have good space for one.

Since it hammpers tech and getting policies there is a big downside for placing an extra city.

So when yould you settle a 5th city?
For example, when you gain at least 2 luxs? Or only when you need oil or coal and can't get it by CS's?

Is there a thread modifying the Tradition 4 city opening for brave new world?

 

[Browd]

Tabarnak wrote up the following 3-city, food-focused Tradition strategy for BNW:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=502837

 

[Carl5872]

Tabarnak wrote up the following 3-city, food-focused Tradition strategy for BNW:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=502837

Thank you Browd and Tabarnak

 

[Gort]

Basically you should always settle a new city if it'll get you a new unique luxury. You get more people in total that way, as well as greater chances of strategic resources (never know where there's going to be Uranium, after all) as well as more money from each trade route.

 

[CaptainPatch]

So when yould you settle a 5th city?

There are several Wonders that can't be built unless ALL of your cities have a ________. (Library, Temple, Colosseum, University, Workshop, etc.) I hold off on setting down #5 until after all 4 have Universities and I've built Oxford University.

 

[joncnunn]

So when yould you settle a 5th city?
For example, when you gain at least 2 luxs? Or only when you need oil or coal and can't get it by CS's?

Myself, it's when after I've already built 4 cities I noticed a city site so good I would have built it as one of my four cities instead of one of the ones I actually built.

If it's merely a good site, I just hope the AI settles it with plans on conquering it and leaving as a puppet after the AI has built a few buildings there.

 

[voek]

[Considering tradition]

Building cities after turn 100 usually dont worth it.
Of course, there exceptions - i.e. for Isabella you should place cities near good wonders, turn 100 or 130 doesnt really matter.

Interesting, I was looking for something like that. But is it from experience or did you do the math (cost of increased tech and policy cost vs what the city would need to return in the same set of turns)?

Considering the hapiness loss (point from KB) , I would guess the 5th city would need to be at least 1 lux. Together with hapiness buildings, wouldn't that be enought to offset the hapiness loss?

 

[katfish]

Building cities after turn 100 usually dont worth it.

But by turn 100 i only finish wonderhoging!

 

[Aaron90495]

Interesting, I was looking for something like that. But is it from experience or did you do the math (cost of increased tech and policy cost vs what the city would need to return in the same set of turns)?

Considering the hapiness loss (point from KB) , I would guess the 5th city would need to be at least 1 lux. Together with hapiness buildings, wouldn't that be enought to offset the hapiness loss?

Yeah, I would disagree with FrostK. With internal trade routes, you can now pump up a city quite quickly, ESPECIALLY if it's coastal. In a recent game of mine (Deity, Morocco, Continents), I had a ring of four cities with unsettled land in the middle. Around T200, I decided that the land in the middle was good enough to warrant another city. It wasn't even coastal, but within 100 turns it was my third best city (and almost second) out of 5.

If there's a really good spot and happiness allows (AND you don't think you'll get killed by ideological unhappiness soon), you should almost always settle that city. The only exceptions would be if it offends a dangerous neighbor or is very difficult to defend.