When to expand?

aisle5

Chieftain
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Sep 22, 2010
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I'm new to Civ, started playing Civ4 at the beginning of September and now playing Civ5.

I'm trying to ramp up the difficulty I play on and I'm looking for some tips on when I should try to expand my empire.

In my current game I'm playing as Askia on King difficulty on turn 155. I have two coastal cities, neither of which producing many hammers. Rome is the closet civilization to me and Caesar has already conquered the two city-states that were nearest to me and he has just declared war on England, currently one of the weaker civilizations in this play-through. While I'm ahead of Caesar in terms of raw tech(I've researched 4 more techs than him I think), I'm concerned about him expanding so quickly and aggressively.

I'm wondering if anyone has some tips on if I should try founding some more cities to try and match his pace, and any general tips anyone might have about discerning when it is time for your civilization to expand.
 
There really is no straight-forward answer to this question since playing with 1-3 cities is a very viable option. I personally play this opening:
- Research Calendar and Writing
- Build scout, warrior, worker
- Build Stonehenge
- By the 2nd turn of building great library I'll have Tradition and the +33% wonder production social policies.
- Build Great Library and use it to hit midevil era. Then start going into my Patronage tree full-force
- Expand Twice. 1 For luxury resources and 1 for a commerce coastal city. I will sometimes get Iron Working before getting my 3rd city so I can increase my chances of securing precious Iron.
- I typically don't build my own 4th or 5th city. I will usually, if possible, Annex them.
 
Don't expand, jon shafer forces you to play his preferred style. Stick to 3-5 cities. Blah.

Everytime I attempt, I run into numberous problems.
 
Obviously it'll depend a bit on map size and such, but the simple answer is "whenever you have enough excess Happiness to handle it". The big difference from earlier Civ games is that you no longer want to place cities just to fill in gaps; you're perfectly okay leaving a bad stretch of land vacant. That being said, you should be expanding quickly; not as fast as in Civ 4, but still fast. If your happiness is at +10ish (or lower, if the target location will add a luxury) then go for it.

If you can place a city near a luxury resource you don't have, do it, period. (Even if you DO have that resource already, it's often worth it once you start trading with other empires.) The five happiness you'll gain is worth any cost, and it's one fewer luxury for your enemies.
If you can place a city near a strategic resource you're in short supply for, do it. Especially if it's Coal, which you WILL use for Factories. (Invariably, there'll be some massive arctic deposits of coal and oil that'll require an ice town.)
And keep an eye on apparently empty tracts of land; invariably these end up being where the Coal, Oil, and Uranium spawn. In my last game, three of the world's six coal deposits were within a single city-state's borders, which led to a MASSIVE world war once we all reached Industrial; up until that point it had seemed like a worthless ally to make, but once the coal popped...

If you try sticking at a small number of cities, you'll be fine in the short term, but in the long term you'll lose the resource race. You NEED at least one deposit of every strategic, and as many unique luxuries as possible, just to survive in the late game. Having multiples of luxuries is a huge boost to diplomacy; I've effectively bribed most of the AIs in my last game into friendship by just giving them excess Dyes and Silks (since I had 5 of each) for tiny amounts of money.

One thing to keep in mind is that cities now use three rings of tiles instead of two. So you really don't want your cities to be too close together. Conversely, the new spread mechanism makes the actual positioning of good tiles more important; in Civ 4, as long as the good tiles were somewhere in the 21 it was all about the same, but in C5 the ones in the first ring are far more valuable than those in the third, and you don't have to worry as much about including a few "worthless" tiles in the radius or overlapping at the wrong point with one of your other cities.

Do NOT worry about the +30% cost for social policies per city. It's an additive change, not multiplicative, so it's really only a problem if you suddenly annex a bunch of unproductive cities at once. That said, I HAVE had a few times where I delayed using a Settler for a turn or two just to grab a new SP.

Connect new cities to your capital ASAP, and they'll pay for themselves in trade route income. This is where the Harbor comes in; if you place a city far from your capital, don't bother with a road unless it's necessary militarily, just build (or rush) a Harbor. Once it's connected, the money will get nice very quickly. (Just remember that trade income depends on city size, so it'll take a bit to get going.)

Now, there's one thing to watch out for: unit upkeep. In Civ 4 and earlier, you'd have one military unit per city and usually one worker per city as well. In Civ 5, the cost for units is prohibitive, and this includes Workers. If you find yourself telling workers to sleep until a border expands or something, disband them.
There's a slight diminishing return on costs; the first few units are cheaper, so in a small empire, it won't be so bad, but as your empire gets larger this becomes a real problem. So if you find yourself having economic problems in the late game, start disbanding nonessential units, especially including Workers. (In my last game, Small map, I had 23 workers in the modern era, each of which cost me 6 gold per turn in upkeep; it added up FAST, so I disbanded 15 of them.)
(The key phrase to keep in mind: "Up or Out". Every unit should either be upgraded ASAP to the leading edge, or disbanded. Anything else will kill you in upkeep. So if a unit has less than 4 promotions, don't bother keeping it around once it's obsolete unless you absolutely have to.)
 
Don't expand, jon shafer forces you to play his preferred style. Stick to 3-5 cities. Blah.

Everytime I attempt, I run into numberous problems.

Somebody call the Whaaaambulance.

Just because Civ 5 isn't the same as Civ 4 doesn't mean Jon Shafer forces you to play his preferred style.

It's getting a bit annoying seeing everyone complain about stuff that clearly isn't a problem at all. On Emperor i'm currently playing as the greeks and I have 9 cities right now and my military is strong, my economy is 180+ gold a turn, and my happiness is always about 10. I am 2 tech away from the modern age. Clearly I am allowed to play with more than 3-5 cities because I'm doing very well thus far.
 
Don't expand, jon shafer forces you to play his preferred style. Stick to 3-5 cities. Blah.

Everytime I attempt, I run into numberous problems.

I have half the map, so clearly I didn't have those problems. Actually, more specifically, I had to overcome the expansion obstacles. Likewise, small empires have to overcome obstacles (lower population = less science and gold). My solution was simply to take the cities with luxuries from my enemies, but trade would also work. I had to burn a couple of great people to keep my economy from going into the red, so I perhaps could have played better. Still, to suggest that expansion is impossible is wrong.

For the original question, I realize this is a vague answer, but the answer is "when you're ready." I'd certainly recommend getting a second city out as quickly as possible (I usually start building right after my first social policy so I can get cheaper settlers). After that, try and figure out how quickly you're going to grow and whether there's any place really worth while nearby.
 
At start, the maximum number of cities you can realistically have is three, considering you plan on getting some happiness resources with them. I can imagine no other possible scenario for wanting 3 cities asap other than grabing some really good land. Later, whenever you have 10+ extra happines you can expand. Just remember that wars don't have an instant on/off switch button.
 
It varies depending on what you're doing, map type, etc. I like to try to grab some of the early wonders, as some have said, since they're practically unbalanced AND extra culture early from any source is good.

Don't expand, jon shafer forces you to play his preferred style. Stick to 3-5 cities. Blah.

Everytime I attempt, I run into numberous problems.

Learn and adapt, it's what I had to do.

My first game was a sloppy game of experimentation and stuff and I won via conquest with a lot of cities and it was very messy.

I've since won a variety of ways a little more cleanly.

On my most recent conquest I took over all (almost, last AI's cap was easily available so I didn't take all his cities) of a fractal map (elongated/twisty pangea) without using any puppets. I razed a few crappy cities since the AI insists on spamming like they are still playing Civ IV and it's annoying. But I kept most of the cities and took out some juicy city states too. It's very doable with good planning and pace.

Next up, pangea domination using lots of puppets.

I find puppets to be a mixed bag - mostly I hate them. They build all kinds of high maint buildings I don't want and usually drain econ. You kinda need to tweak their tiles to cripple their production and slow down their building, and/or trading post spam them so all they have to work are gold yielding tiles to pay for themselves.
 
Learn and adapt, it's what I had to do.

Agreed. So far everytime I play this game I learn at least one new useful thing I could do for one reason or another.

Like for example, spamming Great Merchants to acquire City-state allies instead of paying for them directly. Trade missions give a huge Influence boost to City-states, in addition to giving you gold to... which you can either spend on more influence, or use for something else. It eats into your GP pool, so there's certainly a trade-off. But that's a good thing.. trade offs mean there's depth to be found.

Like the difference between large and small empires... I think it's glorious that this game can be won just perfectly with 1-3 cities. There's plenty advantages for staying small. However, there's also plenty of disadvantages too. Having played a self-imposed OCC (the option wasn't actually toggled) today, I felt myself doing just as much intense strategizing and planning as I had to with a larger empire ~ except in entirely different areas.

I've also had huge sprawling empires and have done very well too. Different set of pros, different set of cons.

This is a good thing. There's depth.

SO ~ on topic: When to expand... It really depends on what your limiter is. You should have Happiness, and a surplus GPT to pay for building costs in the cities as well. Personally, I don't expand until my culture output is fairly high as well, to deal with the rising costs of policies as I'm addicted to them. But this limitation is easily fixed with Stonehenge or a Cultural city-state as an ally.

The next time I play I'm actually going to text out REXing: Expanding as fast as I possibly can with reckless abandon. Just to see what new things I might discover. Doing that OCC was a crazy-fun experiment.
 
This is a helpful thread.

I've had an easier time playing with more cities than with fewer. How do you win with, say, 3 cities? I know that number is good for keeping social policies cheap, but when I try it, I get outclassed on science (because my population is lower) and military (because I can't support as many units).

I suspect the answer is: city-states. But I have trouble raising enough gold to get enough city-state allies.

Anyway, right now I'm playing a warmongering game, but for my next go, I'd really like to win a 3- or 4-state cultural win, and I'd love some tips on how to do it. :)
 
you need alot of raw population, and city growth is slow before the renesanse.
you need lots of gold to buy city states off, and getting a few fewer policies does not mean a lost game.
Getting behind in tech level usually means you just lost the game.
so i recommend you find out a tactic where you exspand agressively towards happiness and population.

India is very good at maintaining a huge happyness surplus, so exspand alot towards happiness resourses. Also india is very good after they won a war, the problem is winning it.
 
For me it always goes different ways. I've found that I am playing better and better by focusing on getting lots of hammers in my cities. That gives you the chance to start building things like colosseums which are worth 3/5s of a happiness resource. In a recent duel game I had expanded four times by AD 500 and was still in positive happiness land, and that's without any of the social policies that make expansion easier.

Personally, I would definitely start expanding around the time growth is slowing in my first city. I normally only have one worker really early in the game, so I also typically won't expand until I've improved enough of the tiles at City Zero that my worker can switch off to the second city.

Sorry, that's a little all over the place. TL;DR: Expand as soon as you can such that the new city will not be constrained by happiness, access to a worker, or military protection, unless you are trying to run an empire with only a few cities.
 
I run into trouble because of capitals, which you can't raze... That is when I expanded before that, it just tips the scale.
And puppetry just makes you pay maintenance on stupid buildings.
 
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