When to get out of Despotism

Fiddlin Nero

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Whether I'm heading for Monarchy or Republic I seem to always take a hit for a considerable time in commerce. In my current game I kept my core cities at 6 to feed my rapid expansion, and since I had a Religious civ I decided to test on a regular basis when Monarchy would return the same as Despotism. Past experience and several do overs in the current game confirmed my core needed to be well on the way to 12 population, at least 7/8. Getting that irrigation benefit just doesn't quite overcome the commerce hit.

Does anybody use other factors related to the timing of your first government revolt?
 
I always get out of despo asap, you may take a temporary hit, but increased growth should pull you up quickly.
 
Disclaimer: This has Civ3Complete in mind.
To answer your question: if my army can be supported in Republic, then I move. This should be just around the end of the land grabbing phase.

The only way to get less commerce out of republic is army support and/or unhappiness.
Military police is gone in Republic (2 in Despo, 0 in Repo) making your content people unhappy again. And if you have a lot of armies and a lot of towns (1-6 population) instead of cities (7-12 population), the army support will take a bite too. The military support of Despo is 4/4/4 (town/city/metro) and 1/3/4 in Repo and 2/4/8 in Monarcy.)
So you were right, with every city of a population of 7, your republic can support 3 military units, instead of 1 when the city size is 6. Any 'not supported' unit will cost you gold per turn.
If you have not yet marketplaces (currency) then the luxuries you have will not yet multiply. (and you often have few in the early game)

So if I can make a bet: your cities aren't big (not 7 or over) but you do have a large army and not many luxuries.

Posting a save would be nice, then we can see where the problem is.
My sig has link towards more info about Governments in C3C.
 
Don't forget that switching out of despotism will reduce corruption in general. So you can pick up extra shields that way and the increased food production may allow a settler/worker factory that would otherwise be impossible under despostism. The problem might be your desire to switch to Monarchy vs Republic. Unless you are playing a varient or AW, republic is almost always better. I was at one time a diehard Monarchy fan. I am pretty well convinced now the republic is better even without unit support.

Otherwise I agree with the other posters - the bonuses of any other government outweigh the support bonuses of despotism. The despotism penalty and increased corruption are murder. The faster you get out of despostism the faster you will grow - the faster you grown, the faster you gpt will increase. With that said, one of my last concerns at this stage of the game is how much gpt I am making. Even if your core is seriously underdeveloped, you will be better off in the long run by making the change.
 
Uh yes, all that talk basically means: if you don't have a ridiculously big army, then switching ASAP is recommended.
 
Uh yes, all that talk basically means: if you don't have a ridiculously big army, then switching ASAP is recommended.

Uh actually no. All that talk means that regardless of how big your army is, switch ASAP. Unless you have been playing in despotism for a very long time after republic or monarchy becomes available, how big can your army be? And if you are really worried about unit costs, move into Monarchy. Put that huge army to work conquering someone. And if your goal is not to conquer someone, why the heck do you have a big army? Trim that army and swap to Republic to dominate the tech trade.
 
I'm not convinced that asap is the way to go. It may just be my map options since I like a longer expansion phase. It comes down to which will give me the quicker early expansion, my core cities generating settlers in despotism or settler factories outside my core in monarchy/republic. The monarchy/republic debate has been pretty much beat to death a couple of times.

I may need to reprioritize my workers. Currently they are split between core development and connectivity of my expansion. I don't improve tiles outside my core until my workers have finished with the core and expansion.

Theov wrote: To answer your question: if my army can be supported in Republic, then I move. This should be just around the end of the land grabbing phase.

I've haven't heard anything that will deflect me from sticking with despotism until the end of the landgrabbing/expansion phase. I will keep my eyes open for good settler factories so I can transition more core towns into cities so I can support the earliest possible government move.
 
What you have to remember is that the benefits of either Monarchy or Republic will out weigh in almost all circumstances the benefits of Despotism.

Faster Growth, More Commerce in Republic, Less Corruption verus better unit support.
 
Unless you are religious, the longer you wait, the odds are higher for longer anarchy.
 
I'm not convinced that asap is the way to go. It may just be my map options since I like a longer expansion phase. It comes down to which will give me the quicker early expansion, my core cities generating settlers in despotism or settler factories outside my core in monarchy/republic. The monarchy/republic debate has been pretty much beat to death a couple of times.

I'm having a hard time grasping how despotism will help you expand faster. :huh: Elimination of the despotism penalty (+fpt, +spt) allows many additional cities to become a worker or settler pump and gives the ability to cash rush without the loss of population (aside for the other points already made). If you want a really fast expansion, leave your core producing workers and settlers too.

This is how I see the balance. You are worried primarily about your economy (based on your first post). If we are talking a pure +gpt, swapping to Republic will gain the most UNLESS you have a HUGE unit support and few luxuries to control happiness, along with cities large enough to have happiness problems (difficulty level will come into play here too). Republic will allow you to expand faster than despotism, more cities = more gpt, and that return is even greater under republic with +1gpt on gpt producing tiles.

The original question is when you can make a smooth transition between despotism to (insert other government here) and you are basing this primarily on a stable economy (my interpretation), leaving out factors of fpt & spt increases. I think that is the mistake. Though the transition may hurt financially, if you track the total advantages over the same period of time, any government will perform better overall.

There is an easy way to test this. Play a game in despotism until you find the natural transition point and then play 20-30 more turns. In a parallel game, swap as soon as you can and play to the SAME end date. Compare results. You could even see the difference by running 3 parrallel games to cover all three governments. Playing a religious civ might throw the curve a little because you will negate the early/late revolt issue but it will also remove a random element from the test. A bad revolt roll could seriously skew the results.

Connecting outer edge, corrupt cities is a distant second concern to improving the core. That is where your improvements will boost your economy and production. A lone worker roading to oblivion is okay, if your forces are 50/50 (or even close) that is a mistake (IMO) unless your core is improved to the point that no citizen is working an unimproved tile.

This is all just general, though. Specific VC make everything conditional and there are always exceptions.
 
So what I'm hearing is that everybody jumps out of Despotism as soon as you have the tech.

Keeping the discussion on settler production and gold per turn I'll put my 9-13 core cities in despotism and population not greater than 6 alternating between settlers and spears against republic/monarchy for gathering up the most land before the AI gets to it. I think the big caveat is I tend toward larger maps and fewer civs giving me a longer expansion phase than most players get.

Yes, everything everybody says about the advantages of Monarchy/Republic are true, but not until later in the game when the popuation of your core can support.

So I am delaying a war producing economy for the earlier expansion
 
So what I'm hearing is that everybody jumps out of Despotism as soon as you have the tech.

Keeping the discussion on settler production and gold per turn I'll put my 9-13 core cities in despotism and population not greater than 6 alternating between settlers and spears against republic/monarchy for gathering up the most land before the AI gets to it. I think the big caveat is I tend toward larger maps and fewer civs giving me a longer expansion phase than most players get.

Yes, everything everybody says about the advantages of Monarchy/Republic are true, but not until later in the game when the popuation of your core can support.

So I am delaying a war producing economy for the earlier expansion

Hm, I don't know. You lose only the few turns of anarchy for the expansion phase. As you should already have your 9-13 cities before you get to the republic, you just delay to place 2-4 more cities due to 3 to 5 turns of anarchy. And that's just for that time - after anarchy, your cities will soon be able to produce settlers in a faster pace. With your settings, I'd say, the early republic even serves you even more, as you'll not have to build a lot of units in the early game.
 
Hm, I don't know. You lose only the few turns of anarchy for the expansion phase. As you should already have your 9-13 cities before you get to the republic, you just delay to place 2-4 more cities due to 3 to 5 turns of anarchy. And that's just for that time - after anarchy, your cities will soon be able to produce settlers in a faster pace. With your settings, I'd say, the early republic even serves you even more, as you'll not have to build a lot of units in the early game.

So you are saying that 2-4 cities outside your core in Republic can produce more settlers than a Despotic core of 9-13.

Please be patient with me, I'm really trying to understand the early play that everyone seems to be following.

Go to Republic as soon as tech allows, improve second tier towns to produce nothing but settlers, supplying units from the core to defend them. Is this something close to what you are doing?
 
The only time I might delay the switch is if I am in the middle of a war - even then I don't delay long. I could also see delaying the switch if you are very close to competing a wonder.

The problem I have is that your strategy does not seem consistent with the perameters of your game. If you have a great deal of space to grow into, why are you building spears? What are you defending against? Why not build warriors/archers? If you are far from any other civ, all you need is enough of a military to protect against barbs (assume you have then enabled). Even then it is only necessary to post units at your wilderness borders - with a lot of space it should be possible to have a nice, insulated core that requires no garrisoin at all. This is when I favor a nice group of horses that can guard a frontier via roads.

Go to Republic as soon as tech allows, improve second tier towns to produce nothing but settlers, supplying units from the core to defend them. Is this something close to what you are doing?

For me it is not an all or nothing. I select the cities that make the best settler/worker pumps and set them to work, regadless of location. I will try ot make SF/WF out of second/third tier cities when possible and set my core to building big ticket items. Otherwise the rest build military or improvements (usually markets, barracks and libraries) as needed (difficulty level will impact this decision as well). I slow down the expansion when I start settling purely corrupt cities. I still produce settlers to grab land but switch gears into improvements at that point. I rarely play games that have a HUGE amount of space between civs, so I could see dedicating more resources to SF if there is that much space.
 
One of the things you might want to do on switching to republic is for a short period vastly reduce or turn off your science to get some cash in, and start part rushing settlers in fast growing but non shiled rich towns.
 
I see that you said to let it die, but I can't resist putting in my 2 cents. I think I started a thread like this ages ago, and was advised to use ~20 gpt as my rule of thumb. IOW, keep an eye in CA2 or MapStat, and when the switch to Republic would get your economy withing about 20 gpt of what you're making in Despo, it's about time to switch. Obviously, there has to be some flexibility in that (you don't want to make the switch if you're back is against the wall in a war, for example), and you need to track where your income is going (upkeep, unit support, etc), but using that rule of thumb has worked pretty well for me.
 
Thank You, you're the first one to support my on-going decision to put off going to Republic until I have the infrastructure to keep the gpt up.
 
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