when to start getting pyramids for an SE?

DrPepper836

Warlord
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
134
I'm new to the forums, but not Civ IV. I've been playing for over a year, and haven't won a single warlord level game yet. I keep running into problems that take ages to figure out, but lead to new ones. My most recent nick in my game is the pyramids, I know that they are very good for an SE economy because of rep, but they cost a lot. I usually start strong, begin the pyramids in my capital by turn 45, and have 2 other cities. I'm usually ahead of the AI by then, but I slowly fall back and can't make anything because of the pyramids and having 2 not very mature cities. By the time I finish the pyramids, I'm like 3 cities behind and almost out of space. By turn 200 I'm always dead. Any tips for tweaking my pyramid strategy?
 
At that level, build them in your second or third (or 10th, the AI is so slow) city, and not until after you have mathematics so you get +50% from chopping wood. City production doesn't much matter, you just need about a dozen forests to chop.
 
I agree with the poster above me.
 
Are you getting enough workers out? Your early cities should grow quickly if placed correctly. It is hard to say without seeing a game, so maybe you should try to post a save of a game that you have struggled with.
 
if you can't win on warlord, you shouldn't be running a SE, if you don't run SE you don't need the pyramids. :smoke:
 
I've been playing for over a year, and haven't won a single warlord level game yet...
... I'm usually ahead of the AI by then, but I slowly fall back and can't make anything because of the pyramids and having 2 not very mature cities. By the time I finish the pyramids, I'm like 3 cities behind and almost out of space. By turn 200 I'm always dead. Any tips for tweaking my pyramid strategy?

You have problems with basic game concepts, expansion, and development.
I would therefore suggest playing a game withouth building a wonder before the industrial era.
Spend your production on settlers, workers, infrastructure and military units, you will get much better results.
Early wonders are essentially just a huge distraction for players that struggle with the basics.
 
DrPepper836:

The core of your problem is economic management, which strangely enough, makes DaveMcW's suggestion on the dot.

You should not have 2 other cities in the game at turn 45 unless you're running a lot of Cottages in a largish Capital to fund them, and if you are, you'll never finish that Pyramid in any acceptable time especially if you don't chop Forests for the production boosts.

What you want to do is to grow core cities to fund fringe cities.

Get this into your head: New cities cost you money. They don't benefit your empire, they're money-sinks - drags and leeches, the lot of them. You have to turn them around into productive members of society before you can make (or conquer) more.

Think of it this way. New cities are little babies that need feeding and don't work. You need for them to grow up before you can add more babies to your family, then you can use your now-adult generation to support the new babies.

With that in mind, count Commerce. If you plan to use your Capital for the Pyramids, you don't want Commerce in there. You want food and hammers. Make Workers, grow the city, develop and work tiles that make food or hammers. Your second city will have to bear the brunt of Commerce and Research until your Pyramids come online. So grow it, too, develop it (preferably with Workers made from the Capital prior to Pyramids), and have it make Commerce and Food, with a minor in hammers for the buildings.

Once it's grown up, make a third and fourth city from the second one. Delaying making Settlers and Workers until a city is about size 4 or 5 seems counterintuitive, but it's actually faster that way in the long run. The exception to this is the Capital at 4000BC, which you will often want to make Workers first, if you can put that Worker to use as soon as he comes out.
 
Yeah, I think that I'll give up on specialists. It's not working out. So, I usually tech straight to IW, then agriculture, AH, then beeline CoL. When should I get pottery?
 
I almost never get IW before alpha... That said alpha is proably stupid on warlord. COL isn't very good either. #1 get worker techs to hook up your resources. TURN ON RESOURCE BUBBLES. Seriously though you should play a game where you try to get as many resources as soon as possible instead of necessarily focusing on economy. That should at least allow you to advance to noble. As for pottery i get it after essential worker techs for my start most of the time(quite often i find that i research somewhere along the lines of mining agriculture(key tech to get your cities to grow fast) BW and possibly myst and/or AH before going for pottery(of course wheel is required as well). Try building 1-2 workers for every settler you build. And starting with worker makes the game way easier too...
 
Don't build the Workers in the new cities, though!

Your core cities are already functional. The number of additional pop points they can grow into is less than the growth new cities can generate. Ergo, you want those new cities growing ASAP - that means sources of great food, Commerce or Produciton when they've grown enough to work profit tiles, and few to NO Workers or Settlers in their queues until they're good and productive.
 
If you cant win at Warlord, you cant also run SE.

If you dont know how to manage your workers put them automated. Try to have at least 1 worker/city. Follow the 60% expansion rule. Dont rush to build wonders, especially, those you dont need, like The Pyramids. Train enough date up deffenders. Look some ALCs, or Home school threads here.
 
I tried a game using rklimn and oyzar's tips, and it went ok. I lost because of a giant desert that I started in the middle of, but oh well... I did better.
 
I tried a game using rklimn and oyzar's tips, and it went ok. I lost because of a giant desert that I started in the middle of, but oh well... I did better.

Don't forget to build a healthy amount of cottages.

You might want to post a save, a lot of people are more than happy to offer what help they can if you do.
 
Ok verge, thanks. Here's a save played until turn 150. I tried to not over expand, and I'm ok technologically. I've got civil service, so I'll soon have macemen. I settled Sparta for the flood plains, and Corinth for the iron. Shaka declared war on me on turn 148, but I had a large stack almost ready to attack him that is by his army on the save. I'm good friends with Persia, but way behind on cities everywhere else.
 

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I was just reading through the post and I was wondering:

What about defense?

If you're next to brutes such as Alexander or Montezuma, while you're busy building the Pyramids, you may be seeing a stack of troops coming from your highly developed but poorly defended cities.
 
Personally I didn't realise what Great People were until I moved to Noble. Just kept getting the strange units popping up. Eventually read the manual and came here and realised you could use them for many purposes including lightbulbing.


Then one day I learnt that you could also have specialists who sped up these wonderful GP.
 
I was just reading through the post and I was wondering:

What about defense?

If you're next to brutes such as Alexander or Montezuma, while you're busy building the Pyramids, you may be seeing a stack of troops coming from your highly developed but poorly defended cities.

You shouldn't be building the 'Mids then. In the end, building the Pyramids isn't a strategy, it's a gambit that often lacks certainty and, in many cases, is ill-suited for some starts. I say this at the risk of sparking another SE vs CE debate, but I'm speaking mainly out of my dislike for big-picture strategies that rely on the construction or conquest of wonders, particularly early ones.
 
Looked at your save and situation is far better now than what you described in your first post, a few tip

- Over expanding is bad but underexpanding is no good either, you have 3 cities running science at 90% 800 AD, As a rule of thumb i try to have 4-5 cities 1 AD, 7-8 cities 800-1000 AD. Research can drop off to 40-50% in the process (or much more on immortal but that's another case) , that's ok ,once cottages and courthouses come online you should be able to get back to 70%. You'll need more workers than the 2 you have now though.

- Explore more,There is a lot of unexplored land to the south with a barb city, i'd be very curious what's going on there so go out there and see what's beyond.

- Try to find the time somewhere to run 2 scientists of a library, academy in the capital gives a nice boost to research.

-Edit: Don't forget to switch to bureaucracy, gives a huge boost to capital.
 
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