Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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Consider yourself lucky not to have endured all of the other discussion. And I do mean all.
When to use SE instead of CE?
- Thread starter Zionel
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I probably coined the terms (not SE or CE, but rather their verbose counterparts)... so here's my definition for how I used them: Specialist economies are when more commerce comes from Specialists (and their resulting GP) than from Cottages, and you run the Civics tuned to Specialists and GP generation. Cottage economies are when more commerce comes from Cottages than Specialists, and you run the Civics tuned to Cottages.
(Shrine economy is another type... ShE can kick butt in some cases.
)
The economy is SE or CE to the extent of the ratio of commerce output.
(Shrine economy is another type... ShE can kick butt in some cases.
)The economy is SE or CE to the extent of the ratio of commerce output.
If you're doing a cottage economy, you've got one guy on the cottage, making his own food, and producing the commerce. That's 1 against the happiness/health limit.
If you're doing a specialist economy, you've got one guy working a farm, so that you can have another guy (a specialist). That's 2 against the happiness/health limit.
So it seems that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to cottages and less inclined to speciailists.
In any event, to me it's not so much WHEN to use specialists, but WHERE. I'll typically use specialists in a few "specialized" cities (including a city where I have Globe Theater, so I don't have to worry about unhappiness), and cottages and similar improvements everywhere else (farms as necessary to grow the pop).
If you're doing a specialist economy, you've got one guy working a farm, so that you can have another guy (a specialist). That's 2 against the happiness/health limit.
So it seems that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to cottages and less inclined to speciailists.
In any event, to me it's not so much WHEN to use specialists, but WHERE. I'll typically use specialists in a few "specialized" cities (including a city where I have Globe Theater, so I don't have to worry about unhappiness), and cottages and similar improvements everywhere else (farms as necessary to grow the pop).
Wodan
Deity
It's not quite that simple. If you have food resources, then you have one guy working the resource to allow ~2 specialists. That's 3 against the h/h limit. 2 specialists compared to 3 guys working 3 cottages. (2:3 is better than 1:2).
And, if you're running Representation then you get essentially double the benefit. (changing it to 4:3 or 2:2).
On top of that, before you have a GP farm, if you do it right, then you can generate Great Scientists in parallel, in more than one city. Thus, every city running specialists would generate a Great Scientist, which is worth, oh, 1000-2400 cottage turns (10 cottages for 100-240 turns). Pulling that number out of the air but it's a good benchmark. (As each city generates a GS you could turn off the scientists and change the farms to cottages, if you wanted.)
So, it seems to me, that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to specialists and the less to cottages. Certainly in the early game.
Wodan
And, if you're running Representation then you get essentially double the benefit. (changing it to 4:3 or 2:2).
On top of that, before you have a GP farm, if you do it right, then you can generate Great Scientists in parallel, in more than one city. Thus, every city running specialists would generate a Great Scientist, which is worth, oh, 1000-2400 cottage turns (10 cottages for 100-240 turns). Pulling that number out of the air but it's a good benchmark. (As each city generates a GS you could turn off the scientists and change the farms to cottages, if you wanted.)
So, it seems to me, that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to specialists and the less to cottages. Certainly in the early game.
Wodan
Good points. Certainly if you have food resources, you want to farm/plantation them. What you do with that excess food depends on your situation.
If you have mines, and need production, you'll want to work the mines. If you have room for growth under the happiness limit, you'll probably want to grow. If you've grown to your limit and have no hammer tiles to work, you might have to employ a specialist to prevent further growth (unless you want to work cottaged plains tiles).
Looking at it in the abstract, farming a regular tile as opposed to cottaging it gives you one food (two after biology). Is that one food better than a cottage? It gives you half a specialist, who (with representation) is worth 6 beakers/gold. Let's say the cottage is worth an average of three commerce (financial civs with cottages by the river get that right away, so their average would be much higher). Working two cottages gives you that six beakers/gold with two people counting toward the happiness/health limit. Working two farms to hire the specialist gives you that six beakers/gold with three people.
The GP points from the specialist, before a GP farm is set up, is a good point. However, keep in mind that every specialist you farm counts against you in making each new specialist more expensive. But, getting them earlier is obviously better. I think what you're doing is weighing the value of getting the six beakers/gold with just two people against the value of the earlier GP points. I do think as the difficulty level goes up, the value of getting the six beakers/gold with just two people goes up.
Also, the value of the cottages obviously goes up if you didn't get pyramids, or if you're financial.
Giaur
War Dancer
There is also one form of Economy. Very Powerful after Communism and Electricity. Watermills and Workshops.
aelf
Ashen One
Well, there is also the Trade Route Economy, although technically you can run an SE or a CE at the same time.
Zionel
Chieftain
The higher the level you go, the less inclined you should be to make pre-game assessments about what the specifics of your economy will be.
(At least outside Culture games that is...)
I think I failed to ask the question i was looking to get answered. What u are saying here is what i meant. I'm trying to adjust to the land i get, and the resources that comes with it. What am I looking for in order to use specialists instead of cottages? When I see lots of food resources and grassland, i see a great city to cottage spam, while others see a great specialist city.
I know leader traits are important as well, but you make the decition to use SE or CE when u see the land/resources, right?
Wodan
Deity
It really depends. If you have food resoures in a lot of cities (or potential city sites), you can do either. So which is better? Who cares, pick one and have fun.
If you don't have food resources in a lot of cities, then you'll need grassland/floodplain and fresh water to do specialists or grassland/floodplain to do cottages. If you have neither, then you're either looking at mixture of either production cities or else euphemistically "opportunities for future growth" (not a heck of a lot you can do with a big swatch of hills, before windmills anyway).
Wodan
If you don't have food resources in a lot of cities, then you'll need grassland/floodplain and fresh water to do specialists or grassland/floodplain to do cottages. If you have neither, then you're either looking at mixture of either production cities or else euphemistically "opportunities for future growth" (not a heck of a lot you can do with a big swatch of hills, before windmills anyway).
Wodan
I would say that food specials favor specialists, but grasslands favor cottages. If you've got Fish+Corn, that's more of a food surplus than a cottage city needs. But it's enough to run 4 or even 5 specialists (with lighthouse and irrigation) in a rather small city.
Conversely, the proverbial football field is not that great for specialists. Late in the game, when happy- and health-caps are really high, and especially post-Biology, sure it can do a lot then. But in the early to mid-game, it's tough to run specialists off just grasslands. But you sure can run cottages (probably plant a farm or two to accelerate your growth to the happy caps).
I would say that the leader traits (especially Philosophical vs. Financial) make the biggest difference in how you structure your overall economy. The food distribution influences city-by-city decisions, and may lead you into hybrid territory. I'm happy to run two scientists off a Fish in the early game even if I'm principally CE. Or to cottage up a bunch of riverside grasslands, even if I've got the civics/traits for a SE, if the city has only a modest food surplus.
peace,
lilnev
Conversely, the proverbial football field is not that great for specialists. Late in the game, when happy- and health-caps are really high, and especially post-Biology, sure it can do a lot then. But in the early to mid-game, it's tough to run specialists off just grasslands. But you sure can run cottages (probably plant a farm or two to accelerate your growth to the happy caps).
I would say that the leader traits (especially Philosophical vs. Financial) make the biggest difference in how you structure your overall economy. The food distribution influences city-by-city decisions, and may lead you into hybrid territory. I'm happy to run two scientists off a Fish in the early game even if I'm principally CE. Or to cottage up a bunch of riverside grasslands, even if I've got the civics/traits for a SE, if the city has only a modest food surplus.
peace,
lilnev
Stolen Rutters
Deity
I use the "economy" that fits each city depending a lot on the terrain/layout of the cities and the player I end up getting (I always play random leader so I never know what I'm going to get.) Financial leaders will tend to have more cottages than otherwise; philosophical leaders will have more specialists; etc.
My production city(ies) will never get cottages and are always working mines, watermills or workshops, in addition to the farms supporting the population... so they don't follow either path. The only specialists these cities see working are the engineer or priest (for the production).
My production city(ies) will never get cottages and are always working mines, watermills or workshops, in addition to the farms supporting the population... so they don't follow either path. The only specialists these cities see working are the engineer or priest (for the production).
Only time I will use a SE is if I have a leader with Philosophical trait. When I do use SE I focus more on lightbulbing techs and if I were to use a non-philo leader then it would take seemingly forever to get the necessary GS.
There is no need to always use SE on emperor on up. CE and HE work well too. If you choose SE the more food you have the better. I would never run SE with a financial leader....the only exception being Elizabeth (i think it's her, lol).
I would stick to a purer form of SE when you choose that style till you lightbulb the minimum required techs, such as Philo/Edu/Paper. Then switching to a HE could be great.
If I am in a HE I aim for 5 cities before CS is finished (emperor). 2 production/2cottage/1 GPF. I think you should try to implement your GP farm sooner
. If I am using SE, then all my cities but one production monster (mined) will be 90% farms, therefore they can all be used for production (whip), or more research via scientist.
There is no need to always use SE on emperor on up. CE and HE work well too. If you choose SE the more food you have the better. I would never run SE with a financial leader....the only exception being Elizabeth (i think it's her, lol).
I would stick to a purer form of SE when you choose that style till you lightbulb the minimum required techs, such as Philo/Edu/Paper. Then switching to a HE could be great.
If I am in a HE I aim for 5 cities before CS is finished (emperor). 2 production/2cottage/1 GPF. I think you should try to implement your GP farm sooner
. If I am using SE, then all my cities but one production monster (mined) will be 90% farms, therefore they can all be used for production (whip), or more research via scientist.Zionel
Chieftain
Lots of great advice, big thanks to all.
30+, you are right, i need to start working on a GP farm much earlier. I like to rush a neighboor with axes or chariots, and their capital should be a great choice for a GP farm.
I had a go with SE playing as Isabella, and it actually went quite well considering it was my first attempt. If i had played with CE i would have done better, but that is due to lack of experience. It was hard to adjust to a completly different playstyle. Was a lot of fun to try something new though, and I expect my next try to be better. Will definitly try a philo leader next, as that seems to be much more beneficial, i guess Gandhi makes great practice
30+, you are right, i need to start working on a GP farm much earlier. I like to rush a neighboor with axes or chariots, and their capital should be a great choice for a GP farm.
I had a go with SE playing as Isabella, and it actually went quite well considering it was my first attempt. If i had played with CE i would have done better, but that is due to lack of experience. It was hard to adjust to a completly different playstyle. Was a lot of fun to try something new though, and I expect my next try to be better. Will definitly try a philo leader next, as that seems to be much more beneficial, i guess Gandhi makes great practice
Wodan
Deity
So what does SE stand for? It doesnt say..
Wodan
Deity
Strange. Well, anyway, SE is "Specialist Economy" (generally accepted to mean that most of your research is coming from scientists) and to contrast, CE is "Cottage Economy".
Wodan
Wodan
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