When would you harvest or chop?

[Brutus2]

In an attempt to continue improving my game play, I have been thinking about aspects of the game in which I could improve or mechanics which I may need a better understanding. After reading several posts lately in which people refer to Goddess of the Harvest as a top tier pantheon, it got me thinking about how I rarely chop woods or rain forests and almost never harvest a resource.

Chopping
I understand the value of chopping and what a large boost it can be to production and food especially if you're going to place a district on that tile anyway which removes the feature without giving the yield you would get from chopping. The thing is, rain forests usually have decent yields in the early game and woods (even not next to a river) can be greatly improved with Lumber Mills. More importantly, when I have a builder with three charges I tend to value using those charges for building improvements rather than chopping. There are always so many things that need to be built, I find it hard to "waste" a builder on chopping rather than building. So when would you prioritize chopping over building a mine, farm or improving a resource?

Harvesting
Now this is something I pretty much never do but I feel like maybe I should. Is Goddess of the Harvest that good? What resources would you harvest rather than improve? For me the only time I have ever harvested a resource is if I absolutely need that tile for a district or wonder and have no other option.



I appreciate your recommendations!!

 

[Eramas]

So when would you prioritize chopping over building a mine, farm or improving a resource?

I am basically chopping for the early settlers, important districts like a Campus or Spaceport, sometimes a Wonder that would be really helpful for a specific VC like Eiffel Tower for CV.

 

[Brutus2]

I am basically chopping for the early settlers, important districts like a Campus or Spaceport, sometimes a Wonder that would be really helpful for a specific VC like Eiffel Tower for CV.

So your first builder you might build two improvements and save last charge to chop the first settler? I have always used all three charges for improvements to get the Craftsmanship Eureka but maybe sacrificing that for a quick settler is better.

 

[Eramas]

So your first builder you might build two improvements and save last charge to chop the first settler? I have always used all three charges for improvements to get the Craftsmanship Eureka but maybe sacrificing that for a quick settler is better.

It depends on the amount of info I already have. If I know that there is a really good spot for a city and there will be some competition then I might wait with Craftsmanship and finish it with the second builder I'll buy with gold in the second city.

 

[devolution]

Keep in mind the following thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/micromanagement-strategies-bugs.615281/#post-14749733 on when to chop to maximize the cogs.

 

[Victoria]

Well your first builder can get a key eureka to get to Agoge earlier and chopping does not count for this so chopping the first builder may not be wise in most situations. When you may want to consider it early is to chop.harvest a food square to boost the population but this is at the cost of a key eureka.

The value of chopping increases with your advancement through the tech and civic trees just like districts. So as district prices rise using a chop on a district will not unless you place a district Which fixes its production cost) and do not build it for a while and then chop it in when its of more value. Saving chops until later gives more production but also early chops can give larger benefits and so its not as straight forward as always chop early or always chop late. Getting settlers out early in numbers is a big advantage so chopping in settlers is a good example of something done early. Chopping in districts a while after you have placed them is a good example of a mid game strategy and chopping in a key wonder or a spaceport is a good example of a later game strategy (although wonders like pyramids and coliseum are worth chopping earlier)

Chopping also gives bonus overflow so for example you place a city by the sea and immediately place a harbor fixing its cost to produce to a value (say 80 production). Later on you decide to use a card for 100% production toward a naval ship and your galley costs you 65 production. You place a galley in your city build for 65 production but you also have a builder and some woods to chop. The current value of the chop is 90 production but because you have a 100% card in play that is doubled to 180 production. The builder chops the forest and the 180 production is applied to your galley finishing it. You now have to add something new to the production queue and no matter what it is you have 180-65 = 115 production left to apply to it. So you decide you need your harbor and it says it will take 1 turn to produce (as it only cost 80 and you have 115 production left). The next turn your harbor is produced and the remaining 35 production can be used for the next thing.

100% for ships is a good way to chop in 2 galleys for the shipbuilding eureka quickly - a common early tactic.
Using the Monarchy 50% wall bonus with the 100% limes bonus to get 150% chop can be powerful as is using Harald's +50% for building ships.
Chopping the end of one settler into the next with a 50% discount settler card
Chopping in horsemen with the 50% maneuver card to get them into war when they are strongest for longest is another strategy.

So just chopping can be good for fast production, chopping with a bonus card or ability just makes it better. Placing a district earlier than the builder chopping it also increases value.

Builders increase 5 production per builder but a single builder can typically produce 3 times its worth before feudalism and 5 times its worth after feudalism... 6 times its worth with Pyramids. When you build pyramids and existing builders get an extra charge so good players will leave 1 charge builders waiting around for pyramids.

You can "double value" tiles as well. So an early stone or river forest tile may be worth working but later in the game near the end you can remove the improvement (no builder charge used to do so) and chop it for 200 or much more production. Use early copper for good money per turn but later chop it for great value at the end. When you see the end in sight chopping everything is much better value than leaving it.

Bottom line is how many resource do you have to chop? If you have a few do you use them early or late. Well that depends on how much value you place and what you need at different parts of the game.

Goddess of the harvest.
Well you need to understand that you should be chopping most things. and if you get 200 production from a chop you will also get 200 faith. There is no point in having huge amounts of faith unless you can spend it. So getting Jesuit education as well as goddess of the harvest means you can buy loads of science buildings cheap... its sort of like you have again doubled your chop value. Getting warrior monks or Jongs is also something you can spend it on but to be honest Being Suzerain of Valetta is the main alternative to Jesuit education... but hey, spend the faith on great people as well or naturalists.

 

[civtrader6]

Hi Victoria, great summary of chopping wisdom.

I just wanted to confirm this:

In the same turn you now have to add something new to the production queue and no matter what it is you have 180-65 = 115 production left to apply to it. So you decide you need your harbor and it says it will take 1 turn to produce (as it only cost 80 and you have 115 production left). The next turn your harbor is produced but the remaining 35 production is lost because overflow does not go between turns.

It is my understanding that the overflow does go in between turns - and will be applied to whatever unit/building you're producing next.
Have you done any testing on this matter?

 

[Victoria]

@civtrader6 I noticed it the other night but might well be wrong... I know it used to.
So ... as I am by the computer with firetuner open I'll give it a test and post here

 

[Brutus2]

First, thank you for taking the time to share this advice. So much good information here to pour over and I will try to implement some of these strategies in my next game. For now a couple follow up questions...

Well your first builder can get a key eureka to get to Agoge earlier and chopping does not count for this so chopping the first builder may not be wise in most situations. When you may want to consider it early is to chop.harvest a food square to boost the population but this is at the cost of a key eureka.

See, this is how I have always played, using the first builder to get craftsmanship eureka and there isn't really time to produce a second builder with the need to build early defense from Barbs or aggressive AI. However I have seen many people suggest using the first builder to chop a settler in an attempt to get a second city founded around turn 20 is a much better use. You also said, "Getting settlers out early in numbers is a big advantage so chopping in settlers is a good example of something done early."

I know everything is map and circumstance dependent but on most occasions... use all three charges to get Eureka or spend some to rush first settler? Are you only chopping the second and third settlers? Are you using the capital to produce a builder and then sending it to chop a settler in the second city when it hits pop 2?

Goddess of the harvest.
Well you need to understand that you should be chopping most things. and if you get 200 production from a chop you will also get 200 faith. There is no point in having huge amounts of faith unless you can spend it. So getting Jesuit education as well as goddess of the harvest means you can buy loads of science buildings cheap... its sort of like you have again doubled your chop value. Getting warrior monks or Jongs is also something you can spend it on but to be honest Being Suzerain of Valetta is the main alternative to Jesuit education... but hey, spend the faith on great people as well or naturalists.

I can see the value if you're doing a lot of chopping but I always use my builders for improving luxury and strategic resources and I always feel I can't spare the charges for chopping. Plus I always thought woods should be saved for Lumber Mills and rain forest for Campus adjacency. I guess I need to make chopping more of a priority, at least for chopping a settler in every new city.

As for Goddess of the Harvest, it sounds like although there are some other uses for faith this is mostly useful if you are able to get a quick religion. If you miss out on Jesuit Education or don't plan to get a religion at all, is this still a top choice for Pantheon just for buying Great People?

 

[Victoria]

@civtrader6 yup it still overflows as you said, I'll change my post, thanks

I know everything is map and circumstance dependent but on most occasions... use all three charges to get Eureka or spend some to rush first settler? Are you only chopping the second and third settlers? Are you using the capital to produce a builder and then sending it to chop a settler in the second city when it hits pop 2?

I always feel I can't spare the charges for chopping

Hey each to their own... I personally do not chop in a settler until I get a 50% card on it but I can see the value of an extra one early, its just the craftsmanship eureka also means cheap troops earlier... its not an easy one....I have not thought too hard about it though. That first builder does also increase your production a lot.

 

[Brutus2]

I tend to agree. I think in my next game I will try getting craftsmanship eureka and hard build first settler then try to maybe chop settlers in a couple cities after reaching Early Empire. I'll have to give Goddess of Harvest a shot and if I'm on the coast, chopping two galleys is a great idea too.

Next topic I need to consider is should I be building more farms? I never seem to have six before feudalism for the boost but I guess that's a topic for another day. So few builder charges and so much to do, I may have to go back to playing China!

 

[civtrader6]

Thanks @Victoria
So the overflow does transfer, which is great.
Since you're experienced with testing could I bother you to see whether the any production modifiers are applied to the overflow as well, or just to the base city/chop production?

I'll make up the scenario numbers as follows:
Suppose the city has 6 production overall and a chop is worth 30 production. Suppose further that you are have a slinger at one turn before completion (e.g. 29/35 production).
If you chop at this point, it will create a 45 production overflow, out of which 39 will be applied to the next thing you are producing. The city will also add its own production.
#1 If after chopping the slinger, you put in an encampment in production, next turn the encampment should have 45 production applied.
#2 Suppose now that after chopping you slot a warrior for one turn and then the encampment:

Case A: No double overflow on the same card:

Next turn the warrior will get 6*1.5=9 production from the city + 39 overflow. Warrior will be finished in one turn (40 production), which leaves 48-40=8 to spare. If you put the encampment in next, after a turn the it should have 6+8 = 14 production applied.​

Case B: Double overflow on the same card:

If this is the case (which I doubt, as it would create a 'neverending' bonus), the warrior would now get 9 + 39*1.5 production, leaving ~18 to spare. Then, after a turn the encampment should have 18+6 = 24 production applied.​

Case C: No double overflow on a different card:

If you also slot in the 30% production on the encampment districts, then, after the slinger is chopped, and there are no modifiers on the overflow, the encampment district will get 39+6*1.3 ~ 47 production applied.​

Case D: Double overflow on a different card:

If there are modifiers applied on the overflow, then the encampment would get (39+6)*1.3 ~ 58 production applied.​

Would love to know how the tests pan out, if/when you have time. Best wishes.

 

[Victoria]

np @civtrader6 any test any time.

The overflow goes across. This is the test I did, While I used a scout you can see the overflow added up.
I'll look at your test and see what I can sort out before bed.

Chop for 122 production, 122 – 65 for the galley gives 57 remaining.
I then place a scout in the production queue for next turn for 30
This should overflow 27 to next turn so another scout should be 1 turn as my city is producing 8.4 production

 

[civtrader6]

Well thats great. Does the overflow get the extra modifier applied as well? What happens if you slot a settler - that is, is there a difference with or without the 50% production card?

 

[Victoria]

Well thats great. Does the overflow get the extra modifier applied as well? What happens if you slot a settler - that is, is there a difference with or without the 50% production card?

 

[Victoria]

@civtrader6 I have tested again in the light of the morning with a clear head very carefully and it all works as we would expect it to.. i.e.

The city production is only applied at the end/beginning of a turn and takes % modifiers then only.
The chop has the % benefits applied to it at the time of the chop only with remainder carrying between turns as a fixed unmodified amount.

So I chop a barb in with 1 turn left and the overflow was enough to get another 2 barbs at 1 / turn for the next 2 turns and the numbers fit the chop only get one bonus% applied and each turns city prod gets the %bonus.
I chop in a barb and then change to an encampment with no %bonus card ... The chop overflow is applied to the encampment and the city prod for next turn is applied without any % bonus

 

[Lily_Lancer]

There's no double overflow in any circumstances.

Goddess of Harvest is better than the SUM of all other dozens of pathenons in all situations, I think. And this is the main strength of Indonesia.(The ability to get Goddess of Harvest in fact is more useful than the SUM of all other properties like early faith-purchase frigates and kampung, etc.)

You can always purchase GPs and military units(adopt theocracy) with faith so you shall not worry about the use of it.

For improvements vs chopping, you shall build very few improvements that are really needed(such as 1 farm for every city and luxury and strategic mines) and mainly focus on chopping.
Improvements seldom pay for themselves.

 

[Victoria]

Goddess of Harvest is better than the SUM of all other dozens of pathenons in all situations,

I played a game last night with Indonesia and god of the harvest, it was so powerful the game was no challenge.

For improvements vs chopping, you shall build very few improvements that are really needed(such as 1 farm for every city and luxury and strategic mines) and mainly focus on chopping.

This is something people struggle with. It depends on you finishing your game early, say before T150. Longer games mean mines have more value.
For those unaware, there is a civic card that gives 50 gold per tile appeal you are paid when you change a farm to a neighbourhood, if you can delay this until you get great appeal you can be swimming in money.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

This is something people struggle with. It depends on you finishing your game early, say before T150. Longer games mean mines have more value.

I finish around T150 just because the current version is designed to be finished around that time if you just play the normal moves to develop.(Here for normal moves, I mean those moves that are proven not dominated by other moves, and therefore, become a reasonable choice. Moves that slows your development for sure like building Samurais are never taken into consideration. ) Also, T150 is not early, just very normal.

Longer games require a revolutionary DLC of science, culture, etc.

 

[UWHabs]

Not to turn this to a discussion on goddess of the harvest, but I've started a half-dozen games since the new patch (mostly playing around), and virtually every time I've been able to get the harvest pantheon just playing normally. So yeah, the time that I spawned a relic a few turns in it makes sense, but I've had games where I literally just went normal, got God King, and founded my pantheon, and still got it. Not sure if the change to have civs value religion less also means they play less aggressively for pantheons too, or if they changed the AI preference to value it less, or if the AI simply likes some of the new pantheons more, but it seems much easier to get it than before, which essentially doubles the value of chops.