Where does anti-Semitism start

IceBlaZe

Atheist Proselytizer
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Messages
4,740
Location
Israel
Do you think the growing fashion of attacks against Jews and harrasment of those in Europe is a result of anti-Semitism?
Would you rate it as anti-Semitism, or legitimate resistance to Israeli actions?
In addition, are you concerned by the growing popularity and acceptance of anti-Semitism in muslim countries and leaders?

I'm adding an article discussing the issue, written by Prof. Amnon Rubinstein, I liked.

The new anti-Semitic fashion

By Amnon Rubinstein

The map of the new anti-Semitism does not follow the contours of Jewish collective memory. Instead, its lines overlap with those of dispersed Arab and Muslim communities. For instance, a small Jewish community dwells in Sweden, and in 2000 the country's prime minister initiated an international task force for Holocaust studies; the country has not until recently suffered any bouts of anti-Semitism. Now Swedish newspapers report on repeated attacks leveled by Arab and Muslim groups. The Stockholm daily Dagens Nyheter reported on October 20 that there have been 131 attacks on Jews in the country during the past year. The newspaper also disclosed that Arab and Muslim pupils oppose Holocaust studies on the grounds that they are "Zionist propaganda."



In contrast, Slovakia and Romania, two countries not exactly known historically for philo-Semitism, have witnessed virtually no attacks on Jews during the past two years. This can be attributed to the small size of the countries' Muslim populations.


There is something ominous about this trend: members of a religion that is a spiritual cousin to Judaism are spearheading a hate campaign against Jews; and no Arab or Muslim leader is standing up to oppose this trend. As Le Monde pointed out (October 19), the real problem with the anti-Semitic declarations made by Malaysia's then-prime minister, Mahathir bin Mohamad, is that they were acceptable throughout the Islamic world.

Put together, do these facts stem from issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, and not anti-Semitism? Leftist Jewish intellectuals recently published a book about "Anti-Semitism: The Insufferable Coercion," which argues not all opposition to Israel is anti-Semitism.

True, it is possible, and sometimes obligatory, to criticize Israeli policy, just as France and the U.S. were attacked for their policies in Algeria and Vietnam. The problem is that criticism of the State of Israel ought not to include attacks against the ethnic community that is close to it. Were all Russians everywhere subjected to attacks on account of the destruction of Grozny? Were all Frenchmen responsible for the war in Algeria?

An example of such collective accusation is provided by the admired Portuguese writer, Jose Saramago, a Nobel Laureate, whose incendiary comments about Jews are cited in a volume written by Phyllis Chesler, "The New Anti-Semitism." Saramago refers to Jews who are "spiritually blinded by the vision of Greater Israel," who have a "monstrous confidence that they are the chosen people, and that their psychopathological, racist acts are justified," and who are "convinced that the suffering of others, particularly the Palestinians, is inferior, compared to the Holocaust."

Hatred of Israel and the Jewish people blinds people who are in every other way models of humanitarian tolerance. Italy's former ambassador to the United Nations, and current ambassador to the U.S., Sergio Vento, accused Israel of allowing its soldiers to go to Ramallah in October 2000 so that they would be murdered in a cold-blooded act that would repair Israel's image, after the killing of the Palestinian boy Mohammed al-Dura.

Criticism of Israel is increasingly compulsive. There is considerable similarity between blood libels and a story published on Nov. 8, 2001, in Le Nouvelle Observateur, according to which Israel Defense Forces soldiers raped Arab women at roadblocks so that they would be murdered by their own families in honor killings.

This story was retracted after a month, but its original publication reflects a willingness to believe that Israelis are capable of any abomination. The hysterical obsession with Israel's "crimes" (both with and without the quotation marks) is such that it loses all sense of proportion, as though the Geneva Convention hasn't been violated wholesale by many other states. The claim is that more should be expected from Israel - that is a true claim. But Israelis also expect that the anti-Semitic fashion will be contested by the strong opposition of democratic states.
 
Unfortunately, criticism of the Israeli government has formed a very blurry line alongside anti-semitism, people of all shades and strokes seem to having trouble distinguishing between the two.
 
I don't know any jews here in Sweden (as far as I know), and I wouldn't be able to tell if a person is jewish unless they tell me. Although I can't prove it, I doubt jews are anywhere near being as discriminated as some other groups are.

Of course there are nutheads who find unity and friends in hating immigrants, and especially jews...:(

The criticism against Israel isn't worse than the criticism against some other countries (USA...), and mostly it's the leader that is criticised, or the country itself, and not the citizens.
 
I think what is creating new anti semitism today is Israels close security relationship with America and the common view in the Arab world that Israel makes the most of this relationship in its efforts to create a 'Greater Israel'. Works both ways. Anti-Americanism is also linked to the American/ Israeli partnership.
 
I think what is wrong about the article is the idea of a "growing" anti-semitism amoung Muslims, particularly Arabs.
I don't think it is growing much, anti-semitism is, unfortunately, already well established there. Outside the Arab world that may be a little different, I don't know enough about that, after all we are then talking about places where historically not many Jewish communities existed (Indonesia etc.).
Those Muslims in Europe who are responsible for the attacks described in the article are very predominantly of Arab descent. And concerning the history of war and hatred between Jews and Arabs in the last roughly 60 years I don't think it is very correct to think that it would be much worse there than before.

But that is just one point of the analysis, fact is that anti-semitism amoung Arabs, also outside the Arab world (like in Europe) exists, and is not uncommon. The Arabs I know only confirm that, they hardly know anyone "back home" who is not somewhat suspicious towards Jews, at least. But they won't see it as a "new fashion". What may be called that is that more and more people turn their hatred into violence, but I think that is part of the general growth of radical Islamic violence in the last decades, anti-semitism in a part of that but doesn't specifically rise.

And to answer your questions:
Yes, of course it is anti-semitism, they hate and even attack people solely based on their ethnic background.
No, it is no legitimate resistance to Israeli actions, obviously, as some Jewish guy living in Stockholm or Paris is not automatically a direct representative of the state of Israel (and even if he was the question wouldn't be that clear).
To repeat, I don't think that anti-semitism is growing, the violence caused by it is. And of course that is a concern to me.
 
i think IceBlade is confusing the anti-Israeli gov centiment in Europe with anti-semetisme. If there's one population group that that is frowned upon in most of Europe, it's the Muslim population.
 
Do you think the growing fashion of attacks against Jews and
harrasment of those in Europe is a result of anti-Semitism?

Is there any other possible reason to attack random jews?!

Would you rate it as anti-Semitism, or legitimate resistance to Israeli actions?

These people are criminals, they have no legitimation at all.

In addition, are you concerned by the growing popularity and acceptance of anti-Semitism in muslim countries and leaders?

Of course. Mainly because of the terrorism. The anti-semitic muslim nuts think that if they blow up a synagoge in Tunesia or Turkey they will fight "the devil". Basically their insane world-view which they copied straight from the German nazis makes any jewish institution in the world a target for terrorism. That's pretty bad.

Of course all of this is related to the ME conflict. The muslims hate jews primarly because of Israel. That's not an excuse for murdering jews around the world, though.

I would wish we could just slaughter them down like it happened to the German nazis. I say insane beasts can only be shoot.
 
I have never seen or heard any anti semitism in my life. I have heard the same racial slurs about Jews as I have about pretty much all other races and religions.

I think the article is pretty crap, and I tend to agree with what that writer said. Of course you can blame a whole people for something, especially if it's a democracy.
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
IOf course you can blame a whole people for something, especially if it's a democracy.

A friend of mine is Jewish. Hasn't been to Israel except as a tourist. So you're blaming her for Israeli policy?

The correct word for that is "bigot."

R.III
 
I have never seen or heard any anti semitism in my life. I have heard the same racial slurs about Jews as I have about pretty much all other races and religions.

Where do you live?

I think the article is pretty crap, and I tend to agree with what that writer said. Of course you can blame a whole people for something, especially if it's a democracy.

You agree with who?
 
think IceBlade is confusing the anti-Israeli gov centiment in Europe with anti-semetisme. If there's one population group that that is frowned upon in most of Europe, it's the Muslim population.

I'm not confusing anything. You are confusing my name, though.
 
Iceblace:

I live in Sweden. Have very little contact with jews, although there are some in my family. (father Jewish, mother Christian...and then their kids, not raised as Jews, but still very aware of customs etc...)

I agree with the author quoted in the article. I think (notice think, since I am not some allseeing God) that a people, any people, can be influenced by a cause, a feeling whatever, and then become "spiritually blinded".

Reading through this Forum alone, I see the same statments being made about the Chineese, The Arabs, The Americans, The Europeans...so what is the big deal about it ll when referred to The Jews?
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
Reading through this Forum alone, I see the same statments being made about the Chineese, The Arabs, The Americans, The Europeans...so what is the big deal about it ll when referred to The Jews?
Whats the big deal? Anti-semitism lead to the extermination of 6 million people. Plenty of people today, in the Arab world and elsewhere, wish that Hitler could have finsihed the job. Thats what makes it different.
 
So, since Hitler killed 6 million Jews 50 years ago, calling a Jew something bad is worse then calling a Cambodian something bad? Unless someone kills a few millions of them too, or what?
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
So, since Hitler killed 6 million Jews 50 years ago, calling a Jew something bad is worse then calling a Cambodian something bad? Unless someone kills a few millions of them too, or what?
Zultan theres a difference between calling a Jew something bad, and calling an Israeli something bad. If you dont like the Jews, youre an anti semite, if you dont like the Israelis, then you merely disgaree with actions taken by their government.
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
So, since Hitler killed 6 million Jews 50 years ago, calling a Jew something bad is worse then calling a Cambodian something bad? Unless someone kills a few millions of them too, or what?
Fortunately someone did, so now it's also wrong to call a Cambodian something bad. :goodjob:
But you may still be called something bad, sorry, but there weren't simply not enough Swedes murdered.
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
So, since Hitler killed 6 million Jews 50 years ago, calling a Jew something bad is worse then calling a Cambodian something bad? Unless someone kills a few millions of them too, or what?

Listen, bigot, it's very simple.

1. I try to avoid doing it. But when I refer to "Chinese," or "Americans," I'm usually not generalizing in such a way as to justify their deaths, their exclusion from society or racial harassment.

2. Israelis are Israelis. Jews are Jews. The fact that some happen to be one and some happen to be the other does not justify calling them all the same thing, even if it WERE fair to blame the hundreds of thousands of active Israeli critics of Israeli policy for Israeli government actions.

You just did call them one in the same - and completely ignored my question. You clearly stated that it was fair to blame "a people" - e.g. Jewish people - for anything Israel does. You don't see a problem with that? Bigot?

R.III
 
Originally posted by ZultanofZex
So, since Hitler killed 6 million Jews 50 years ago, calling a Jew something bad is worse then calling a Cambodian something bad? Unless someone kills a few millions of them too, or what?

I agree whole heartedly, but...

The problem is that so many people absolutely despise Jews. It is easy for them to get carried away. Anti-Semitism will never go away. Judaism is too easy to look at as a racist or elitist religion for many people not to despise them. The fact that there are a disproportionate amount of Jews in the entertainment industry, and in high income jobs just fuels the fire and adds to the conspiracy theories. I don't see any remedy other than Jews getting a homeland where they can live without harrassment. It seems that is an impossibility.
 
DP:

Agreed. But cutting out a one sentece quote from a book, where the author uses the word Jew instead of Citizen of Israel and then saying that it's anti smeitism is a bit much. I will gladly call people from the middle east area, that strap a bomb onto themselves and jump a building "Arab terrorists" and I am in good company doing so. Perhaps I should call them "Assyrian Christians, from the State of Syria, that happen to be inside the state of Iraq", but I don't. Doesn't mean that I hate the arab pizza man down the street, does it?

Hitro: How far back in history can I dig?;)

RIII: OK, I've baited you enough, so you can stop hitting those 5 keys on your keyboard...as I said above, it is perhaps lazy to say Jews about citizens of Israel, but it happens to be the only Jewish state, and being Jewish is a sure passport to gain access to that country. Would you really have been this upset if he would have said "Norweigians club seals" instead of "Some people, of both Norweigian citizenship and others, of different religion and racial heritage, have, with the consent of the Norweigian Govn. clubbed seal cubs".

Mescalhead: I think I agree there. The Jewish are, and have been, very successful, and this created alot of hatered. They are also different enough to target easily.
 
Top Bottom