Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Mar 23, 2014.
- great discoveries : Greece, China, Germany, USA.
- home to particularly great people : Greece, France
- powerful cultural or religious impact : Rome, Ottomans/Arabia, Byzantium, France, England, USA, Japan.
- giant conquests : Mongolia, England, France Russia, USA.
- huge economic impact : Spain/Portugal, England, China, USA.
- impressive culture/monuments : China, India, Greece, France.
Thanks, but Charlemagne wasn't French. You can speak about France around 1 000AD. Before, it's not really our civilization but a common origin with Germans, English and Dutch.
Not erroneously, just anachronistically." Eastern Roman Empire" is just as erroneous, besides.
What? They're not in the game.
By the Vatican I guess you mean the Papal States. The Papal States has defined European history more than any other state in Europe, but I don't view it as counting in this poll.
I think America's contribution is the interexchange of cultural ideas. Most of the mid-modern time achievements of other civs would have been far less impactful had it not been for the social globalization that America created. Did 'America' create the greatest things or idea? No, but I can see a great argument that they enabled the creation, and more importantly, the spread of those ideas.
As a commentator on the BBC's In Our Time programme once pointed out, we call it the Byzantine Empire essentially because it's difficult to pronounce Constantinopolitan Empire. The contemporary name they would have used for themselves would have been either Roman Empire (by that point 'Eastern' would have been redundant, and Europe as a whole saw it as a direct continuation of Rome) or 'Greeks'.
Incidentally, a later programme firmly hammered the nail in the coffin of the myth of Tours - the Franks didn't "halt Muslim expansion into Europe", they defeated a minor raid that didn't have the sanction of either Cordoba or the Caliph.
Germany is in the game; the name the designers chose for the civ, and the city list, are modern, but Germany in Civ games (except Civ IV) has always represented the HRE as much as modern Germany, just as England has always represented Britain. Previous versions of the game have even had Frederick the Great as the civ's leader.
You're right, but the poster should have just said Germany in the same way that they said England, to avoid the potential confusion.
I voted for Rome, England and China (in that very order)
I think Rome is the greatest civilization ever, because they created and sustained a huge empire without modern economy, bureocracy (typo?) and many other things. Modern democracy, cristianity, architecture, literature and countless other key parts of our lifestyle were ingrained into European culture by romans (although some were invented by other nations). And remember, that most european languages are based on Latin (exept Finnish...)
England is second for industrial revolution and everything that followed (including the largest empire in history of mankind). China is just a vast country with a rich history. It's kinda sad that people know so little about it, perhaps because of Mao's "cultural revolution". But a civilization that was able to create the Great wall, Forbidden city and temple of heaven deserves its spot on the list.
I don't want to include Greece, because the city-states were never an empire, and Alexander's empire didn't last any longer than the khan's. If we rate greece as a homogenous cultural area, then I would also vote for Polynesia (their canoe colonization was a lot braver than the european counterpart)
Honorary mentions go to Germany for starting two world wars, America for winning both of them (and from their soon-to-be cultural victory) and Arabia for an empire almost exceeding that of Rome.
The title of the thread is "Which Civ5 civilization had the biggest impact on history?" It doesn't specify what history (i.e. Ancient History vs. Modern History).
As I said previously, it's inevitable that this thread will devolve into a nationalistic shouting match and be shut down by the Mods. Your last sentence isn't helping to prove me wrong.
I said Holy Roman Empire because it incorporates Germany and Austria which are in the game.
Yes, the Byzantines called themselves Romans. Contemporary Bulgarian chronicles dub them "Romei" which is plural of romans in Bulgarian. I agree with that. We use the term Eestern Roman Empire to differentiate them from the Western Roman Empire or the actual Roman Empire. And also from the Holy Roman Empire
Charlemagne's reign did a lot for Europe and for Christianity. That his grandfather halted the arabs is a fact, raiders or not. Had they pressed on, they would have met with stiffer resistance.
Let's not get off topic here.
Actually, I find the very question of the poll a bit vague:
IMO having an impact on history and being impressive are not perfect synonyms. You don't make an impact on history by inventing something that people outside will never know about or just marking the landscape with your burial tombs. However, you do make an impact via huge expansion, letting other civilizations know about you and making them try to be like you and best you - when desicion-making of other civs is heavily affected by your sheer presence. The Mesoamerican cultures are a good example of that - their calendar, surgery and even some habits like bathing were way advanced in comparison with Europe of that time. But due to their geographical isolation they were not able to expand their presence in the world arena. In the end the only statements we have about them now is "Yes, Maya/Aztec/Inca were great, they had some very impressive inventions.......and they were conquered by Spain". China also falls into the grey zone - with more and more reveals about its ancient inventions, one question becomes apparent: "Why did they stop trying at one point?" If there was a question "What is the most impressive civ that made a much smaller impact than it could?", I would answer China in a heartbeat.
Speaking of which, does anyone remember a website where a guy analyzes the way civs are represented in video games (iirc I found the links on CFC)? Those were some great articles.
This is both wrong in nearly every particular and a caricature of American importance - America's role in WWI was peripheral; the decisive battles of the war - such as Amiens and the Second Battle of the Somme - had been won by French and Commonwealth forces almost by the time the Americans set foot in Europe. In WWII, America was certainly important for the liberation of Europe, but the other theatres of war are often forgotten: the British (with American and other allied support, but in a definite secondary role) had defeated the Germans in North Africa, the Russians on the Eastern Front. Certainly American rather than Russian victory in Europe defined the character of the continent for the next 50 years, but once again Germany was already on the losing side by the time America's major impact was felt (that, after all, was why the Americans' major contribution was planning and executing the invasion of Normandy - it's hard to invade when you're losing). America was of course critical in winning the Pacific War, where the British were comprehensively defeated by the Japanese.
On the other side of the coin, the greatest American contribution to the 20th Century has already been mentioned: the assembly line. Mass production had a much greater effect on the world than winning a war (and was itself a key component of that victory). And without lend-lease Europe would not have recovered as quickly as it did from the war. American 'victory' in the Cold War was arguably more important in defining the character of later 20th-Century Europe - and the world - than victory in WWII. And America's 'cultural victory' was arguably won in the '50s.
Britain incorporates societies covered by the Celts, and the Scots had an important role in the British colonial era. "Germany" is a perfectly acceptable shorthand for the HRE - the Austria of the game doesn't overlap with the HRE period at all, and Austria is itself a modern name for what was essentially part of, historically and culturally, German territory.
The point is, at the time contemporaries saw no need to make any distinction between Byzantium and the "actual Roman Empire" - they weren't seen as being distinctly separate entities any more than Tudor England and Norman England, or than Ming and Han China, conventionally are. Byzantium was the Roman Empire - its territorial extent had changed over time, but that was quite common for states of the period.
Contemporaries had no trouble having both a Roman Empire and a Holy Roman Empire (which went through a whole range of iterations of its name).
It did, but the extent to which he can be claimed by France alone is debatable, and rests mainly on the semantic fact that that's the modern state which takes its name from the Franks. I believe the Germans also claim him, on the basis that he was the first Emperor of what was later called the HRE.
France is by no means short of achievements in its own right, and was itself a fundamental player in the fate of Christianity as a leading participant in the Crusades and for some time the centre of Catholic power - both as the arbiter that decided Papal policy through surrogates in Rome, and latterly with a Pope of its very own.
The fact is that Martel beat an Islamic (Berber rather than Arab) army. In a battle of so little perceived significance outside the Christian world that it's not mentioned in Islamic chronicles. There simply isn't any evidence of any Cordoban intent to "press on" into northern Europe at all. If they weren't planning to go there, their advance wasn't 'halted' - there wasn't an advance to begin with.
No Phil, Austria IS the Habsburg Monarchy, which was part of the HRE. Not modern day Austria. How? Maria Theresa.
The Habsburgs were not "part of the HRE" - part of their territory was within the HRE, but they were a separate entity. I'll grant that you're right to say the game's Austria represents the Habsburgs rather than modern Austria (I'd thought the uniques were from the later imperial period, but double-checking they're both somewhat earlier), however in that case it's not at all correct to count the HRE as encompassing Austria - that's only true of modern Austria.
Byzantium it brought about the division of Christianity kept the Muslims out of Europe and the Barbarians outside of Christian area's in its earlier reign. It contributed to the start of the renaissance of Europe and culture to flourish. It lasted 1066 years that has to be a record excluding China. It brought about Greek fire which is always fun. Other nations just cannot compete. Except China
America - Culture victory
Greece - Domination victory
China - Science victory
Rome or Arabia - World Religion
America - World Leader victory
England - World Ideology (Order)
Japan - World Ideology (Autocracy)
America - World Ideology (Freedom)
I voted Germany, as they quite literally changed the world during the 1930's. I mean, its not all too positive, but they started war that got the planets largest powers into conflicts, and which then lead to the cold war, and many other conflicts. You could argue that Nazi Germany was the country that left the biggest impact during the 20th century, and not many people would disagree with you.
Is this a glimpse into some odd future when China launches a spaceship to Alpha Centauri and England embraces Communism?
I just wanted to comment on this (as someone with a fascination with linguistics). While many languages in Europe have a Latin influence or heredity, it seems inaccurate to say most. Most all of the languages of Europe are Indo-European would be a more accurate statement. If I'm not mistaken, there are more Germanic languages (English, Dutch, German, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, etc.) in Europe than Romance languages. But there are also other groups worthy of mention- Celtic languages, Baltic languages, Slavic languages, Hellenic languages, as well as some non Indo-European groups as well.
As to which civilizations were most impressive, I too took that to mean influential, and settled on Rome (and Greece), China, and India. Each of these groupings may not have been fully ordered into a specific civilization, however they were the foundations upon which the cultures of the West, East Asia, and Southeast Asia were built, respectively. The impact they had throughout their regions (and with Rome, throughout the world via the colonization periods of theirs, and later their descendants) on the cultures that would later develop is hard to overstate. Rome wins on expanse in general, but each were equally powerful within their own region (honorable mention as above to the Greeks who would likely have had similar influence to the Indians in their region, had their culture not been assimilated into, and later fairly overshadowed by Roman culture).
Every other answer is objectively wrong, and everybody who voted Greece are only doing so because of Eurocentrism, which is the only reason people are voting Spain as well.
Edit: And voting Rome as well
Separate names with a comma.