Which Civilization and Leader do you rate as the worst?

[TheMeInTeam]

no way lol

Hang out on a forum long enough and you hear everything. Next we're going to hear about how Spain's UU is mediocre .

 

[elmurcis]

Hang out on a forum long enough and you hear everything. Next we're going to hear about how Spain's UU is mediocre .

What UU? Spain has some? Need to check it now

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Spain actually has strong military UU and UB (city raider 3 siege out of the gate is pretty nice), and both traits are solid too. Maybe underrated because AI Izzy is so one-track and the early game can be a little tough with the starting techs if you get the wrong situation.

 

[rah]

Yeah, the first time I did the lib MT and rush the world, I thought to myself, the only thing that would make it better would If I had musketeers along for stack/city defense then I checked out SPAIN's UU and said who needs musketeers. You can guess which civ I used in my next game.

 

[ArchGhost]

no way lol

EXP is fine. Straightforward turn saving, no economic help though.

Never been a fan of SPI, it feels very weak compared to the reverence some players seem to have for it. Yes I know about the diplomatic implications. You still don't need it or the free turns here or there if you're careful in diplomacy already/know when and how to swap. Hence, meh. Different story with the Mids, or a better paired trait.

Her UB is fun on Trebs or Cannons, never used her UU though on paper it obviously looks like quite the stark improvement. I just don't play her a lot either way because I don't liker her tech or trait combo, so unless it randoms to her probably not gonna pick her.

I find Roosevelt a somewhat challenging leader.

You know, I used to play Rosie all the time (favorite leader) but as I've moved up difficulty levels I find him not so hot anymore. He has too much to do/take care of to really pull off the shenanigans I liked to do (like Oracle > MC for cheap forges and still get Mids) Would rather play Lincoln or Wash depending on the opponents.

 

[unas876]

EXP translates into a stronger economy. Faster workers = faster tile improvements = more better tiles to work early which means either straight more commerce or more hammers and food, both of which can be directed into commerce. Faster granaries are very good because you get the food advantage faster and save on hammers, both of which again can be translated into commerce. Cheaper harbors straight up give more commerce from TRs and the extra health from them and the +2 from the trait itself allow you to either straight grow your cities bigger or at least to sell more health resources or not have to trade for as many and both of these factors have impact on the economy.

I wouldn't say it's a "fine" trait, I'd say its absolutely one of the best.

How people rate SPI can greatly differ because it depends on playstyle and preference. I happen to think it's a great trait.
Of course if you approach it looking at a regular game with a non SPI leader and how many anarchy turns you have and then just count them together and say that thats exactly the amount of turns you would save with SPI, then it doesn't really look too good.
But first of all, SPI allows you to "cause anarchy" more often and more freely, just the way you need it. You don't have to wait for GAs or double switches or whatever to do that and there are advantages that add up. You can for example just switch between slavery and caste for some extra oomph in terms of whipping or specialists just as you need it, because the "caused anarchy" doesn't actually exist obviously.
Second of all if you play at the highest level you can, not every game will be as straight forward diplomatically and it's not a fair assessment to say "you just need to play your diplo carefully then you won't need SPI" because that's not always possible. A good example would be the latest NC game (Asoka).

I always compare SPI to the dog soldier. Some say the dog soldier isn't that great because as soon as you find copper or horses or play a map where barbs aren't a big issue the dog soldier loses its entire worth almost. Others love the dog soldier because almost no matter the map, barbs are pretty much immediately a non-issue and it gives a great deal of security if you're going into a map blindly.
Same with SPI. It might not always come to be a huge factor, but if it does on a difficult map, it can be a huge advantage.

 

[ArchGhost]

EXP translates into a stronger economy. Faster workers = faster tile improvements = more better tiles to work early which means either straight more commerce or more hammers and food, both of which can be directed into commerce. Faster granaries are very good because you get the food advantage faster and save on hammers, both of which again can be translated into commerce. Cheaper harbors straight up give more commerce from TRs and the extra health from them and the +2 from the trait itself allow you to either straight grow your cities bigger or at least to sell more health resources or not have to trade for as many and both of these factors have impact on the economy.

Yes...i said it saves turns. The effect is good as it starts you on a snowball path, or perhaps to catchup after being dealt a crappy start. But is it as strongly game-defining (nigh broken?) as horrible, nasty abuse of PHI or IND? Is it as broadly applicable empire wide as FIN? I don't think so, personally.. One could even argue of her paring, SPI is more "useful" with the diplomatic caveats, I will readily admit that even though I generally think SPI is overrated.

Spoiler ever the windbag :

EXP workers are indeed nice, but I liken them to similarly crutching on PH settling. You learn better with restrictions rather than providence, IMO. There's also the point to be made that the number of workers you actually build in any game varies based on map, or from player to player even. Said advantage disappears after some point too, like CRE, meaning it's only as powerful as the impact of the worker turns you are "ahead" compared to a non-EXP civ. Just as an example, Lain often (in my eyes) underbuilds workers and is pretty frivolous with them later on yet he seems to do just fine. EXP wouldn't really do much there regarding that worker application.

I haven't been doing so hot on keeping my own worker count up lately (hovering around 1 per city in most games) but it hasn't seemed to be hurting my attack dates Maybe I could improve them by trying to do that more.

EXP granary cost is probably the only thing noteworthy in my eyes, we can agree on that point. Often my first build in a new city will be a multitude of things based on on what I need and the time-frame of the game, but with 1-pop whip granaries under EXP its hard to argue against them.

These translate into stronger developmental speed, but economy depends on more factors than growth. Settling locations, land richness, factors like forest for bonus production, even how many cities you choose to take all have a more profound effect on your actual tech rate.

When was the last time you actually built a harbor (I guess I mean early-ish)? Maybe with GLH gambit? Genuinely curious, I don't build those things ever unless the governor auto-builds them after SP + US build up time.

The health bonus itself isn't even worth a mention barring extenuating circumstance, like starting with tons of FP + jungle and no health resources. It's far too minor and can be fixed by better population management or trading. +2 health won't save you from being resource starved. Better diplomacy or just whipping the pop that can't grow will, if you action it properly.

I have other unpopular stances as well (not thinking FIN is really all it's cracked up to be seems to be one, granaries and libraries going into cities that NEED them first instead of just always, AGG being a nice quality of life trait, etc.) but the insight and exchange of opinion is appreciated, thank you. I suppose we just don't agree on the value of the trait as a total package.

How people rate SPI can greatly differ because it depends on playstyle and preference. I happen to think it's a great trait.
*snip SPI advantages*.

Glad to hear it. It is divisive for sure. Perhaps the most divisive trait. I think the same applies to ORG but it seems to be less popular of a contention.

Spoiler why I type so much? :

To save time here: I know all of this about SPI already, yes, it just doesn't impress me. SPI is a giant amalgam of "what if" scenarios and that is precisely why it will never be a strong trait in my eyes. It *could* allow you do this, it *could* allow you to do that, the actual effect is comparatively minor in lifting limitations or turn saving. And you cannot evaluate the relative strength of any trait without comparison, whether simply in the case of have/have-not or directly against another trait. I do not purport to be "good" at this game whatsoever, I mostly stumble about as I learn the hard way -- just trying to be observant as I play. EXP makes a better case for "strong" vs. "weak" trait.

Or, let's look at it another way: in all the times I've ever played a SPI leader, I've never had a situation arise where the benefits really stood out to me as a contributory factor more so than the normal gambits and execution of play during the game. If it flies under the radar so regularly, how much is it even helping?

I think SPI is a fun, but wildcard trait. It certainly adds some sort of edge that can be felt...to whatever degree. But I would always prefer to play Liz or HC over Mansa even with no consideration of their civs. It only really seems to fit on Gandhi, and Rameses to a lesser degree.

Asoka and Hattie aren't horrible either since they have some very generalistic ease-of-use combos, good catch. I even said as much in the NC195 thread before playing it. SPI didn't exactly help me in that game there more than dumb luck the way the religions fell out--I stayed in the majority religion all game anyway. And beelining Cuirs to roll the map. Even then, if the opposite had happened and religious division wracked the world with political instability, I doubt SPI diplo-fishing would prevent what happened to say, dutchfire in his game--with the kind of crowd selected for the map, danger was imminent either way, SPI helping grease diplo or not.

I always compare SPI to the dog soldier. Some say the dog soldier isn't that great because as soon as you find copper or horses or play a map where barbs aren't a big issue the dog soldier loses its entire worth almost. Others love the dog soldier because almost no matter the map, barbs are pretty much immediately a non-issue and it gives a great deal of security if you're going into a map blindly.
Same with SPI. It might not always come to be a huge factor, but if it does on a difficult map, it can be a huge advantage.

Interesting parallel. I do indeed like the Dog Soldier, but for the insurance angle, and lots of games with frustration at not getting Bronze. I can get always get some good use out of something like, PHI, CRE, etc. even something mostly passive like ORG, that's why I find them attractive as traits. You can rely on what they do and make them work the way that they work. SPI is more volatile and I just don't see it as that useful, even if the potential magnitude could be very impactful and vice versa. I guess I can the see the point of an advantage being an advantage even if it doesn't seem useful in a given circumstance--but then, it's that lack of consistency that makes it unattractive, not whether it is strong or not in this example. At least for me, anyway. Chalk it up to conservative mindset.

Hey for what it's worth, after losing a IMM Fractal Space Race to Catherine (playing Hannibal), I randomed Izzy on a Pangaea IMM game over the weekend and got to stomp some major face with the Conquistador, so now I have a good idea how much those things actually rock. You know that when stack attacking with mixed Cav/Cuirs during transition that your Cavalry get selected to hit the Pikes in a city first that those things are pretty wicked. Still don't like her trait combo or especially the techs

 

[Fippy]

Spi always means more or faster GP (not as fast as PHI ofc) if playing out your trait good,
better golden ages cos they can now be more focused on their tile boost,
more trades with AIs in most Spi games (usually only diplo gets mentioned, but not actual beaker gains).

Can easily translate into more tech progress made than with let's say FIN,
but some of that stuff requires a high level of..hmm how should i say,
awareness of what's possible with your cities and AIs?

 

[Ghpstage]

SPI is a giant amalgam of "what if" scenarios and that is precisely why it will never be a strong trait in my eyes. It *could* allow you do this, it *could* allow you to do that, the actual effect is comparatively minor in lifting limitations or turn saving

I would replace 'what if' for 'what can', and 'saves turns' for 'allows you to maximise civics and religions'

Unlike other traits Spiritual won't give you anything of worth unless you are actively looking for ways to use it, and going for it when the opportunity arises.
Some of its tricks rely on more detailed information, such as knowing if jumping religions will open up trade or war bribe opportunities for example, or set up a situation where you can pry open a religious block (even if its the one you belong to!) using espionage and bribes, or the potential espionage savings for tech stealing. While you may not use them, the opportunities are there in a lot of games.
Other things such as civic cycling can also be more than they appear.

Food for thought.

Spoiler :

What actually happens when you are swapping civics without anarchy?

An example where you swap into slavery and cycle it,
T0 you swap into slavery and can use it immediately. On T5 You swap out of it, but can use it before doing so. You can then no longer use it until T10 when you can swap back and start using it again immediately. During this 10 turn cycle you can use the whip for 6 of those turns, but will spend 5 turns benefiting from a different civic, it creates an extra civic turn purely because Slavery can be utilised during the turn you swap out of it as well as the one you swap into it.

But its not the only civic like this. If you use Slavery to rush an item it uses multipliers available at that point in time to complete the item, so if we add OR and Pacifism to the above cycle Slavery would allow OR to be used during 6 of those 10 turns too.
Similarly Police State, Universal Suffrage, Nationalism, Vassalage, Bureaucracy, Serfdom and Theocracy can give some or all of its benefits during a turn, in the same way as either Slavery or OR above, and a religion swap could allow OR to be used in cities with different religions in a single turn.
Pulling 'civic turns' out of the aether like this is obscure enough not to get much attention (I don't remember seeing it mentioned), but its something that is possible and could conceivably be planned into civic cycling. With that its already gone beyond merely saving turns

Civic cycling itself allows for efficiency savings all over the place. Ask yourself if you whip every turn? and beyond that, do you really need to?
Even if the above Slavery turn from nowhere didn't exist, you can optimise your whipping cycles to allow you to make use of Caste System and Pacifism at least 50% of the time while gaining more than 50% of the value of Slavery and OR, and knowing that it is possible to whip more than one item in a city in a single turn, that you can store incomplete items in the queue, and store raw hammers from overflow by building Wealth or Research can let you fine tune it even further.

 

[2popbulb]

Their weight, underwhelming damage, general inability to make good use of sneak attacks and crits, lack of suppressors, lack of mod choices, high ammo weight and ammo rarity do make them the weakest weapon class by a comfortable margin. But you shouldn't write them off as being unviable.

Junkjet - Has very little growth potential and compares poorly to other weapons, even when you first get it, but it is serviceable and that is all you really need from a weapon.

Minigun - If you use it in shot bursts and/or VATS its economy skyrockets. It'll still never be awesome, but if you manufacture ammo using fertilizer produced at Brahmin farms (which can be done very early) then you can use it as you primary weapon for as long as you want.

Flamer - Performs better if you don't get tempted into increasing its damage at the cost of range. Its entirely reliant on vendors for ammo, but Cricket, Arturo and Myrna all sell 200+ each so there is more than enough to keep it fed as a primary weapon. Just don't use it in VATS. Also becomes quite useless much faster than it should due to the energy DAM bugs..

Harpoon Gun - There isn't a level requirement to start Far Harbour, and you don't need to involve yourself in the initial fight if you don't want to so its not hard to get one early on. They can both breed ammo and take on a sniper role. Pretty excellent by heavy weapon standards, even if still underwhelming.

Striker - Hits reasonably hard, and has a powerful legendary effect. Reusable ammo is nice, and it can breed ammo if the mod is moved to the Big Boy, but it generally feels like a worse alternative to the harpoon.

Missile Launcher - The same merchants that sell flamer fuel often have 5+ missiles and they aren't too expensive. The main knocks against it is weight and practicality, but its also not as powerful as it might seem when compared to sneak attack and crit weapons (it can't make use of either effect)

Cryolator - Only Cricket seems to stock a decent amount of ammo, and its incredibly expensive. Your not going to be able to use it much 'early' unless you use a method of breaking the games economy. Haven't really used it at very high levels, but likely falls behind due to the energy DAM bugs.

Broadsider - The only way to keep this fed is to use eyebot pods. They actually do a respectable job of it, especially employed in numbers, but you need to finish Automatron to get them so its not a simple 'early' option unless you find a few random ones.

Due to the exponential stacking of damage multipliers it would be unwise to simply write off ballistic weapons at high levels. With enough buffs in place they can still do impressive things, like one shotting mythic deathclaws with a junkjet.

Rock-it launcher from Fallout 3 - It is deadly,especially if you use teddy bears for ammo.

 

[Ghpstage]

Rock-it launcher from Fallout 3 - It is deadly,especially if you use teddy bears for ammo.

Indeed.
Don't know how I ended up pasting that in there