Which Civs Actually Accomplished their UHV?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Sanguivorant, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    I don't believe I've seen a thread like this before.

    In short, we are going to be discussing the UHV's of different civs in RFC, and pointing out who actually completed them and who didn't in real life history. Evidence has to be used to prove or disprove the accomplishment (Wikipedia is okay ;) ). If you state that a civ has failed a UHV, you can choose to explain where they went wrong, and what they could've done next time.

    For resource-based UHV's, you're better off trying to find evidence of a Civ capturing an area that has the particular resource.

    If you believe that someone's analysis is incorrect, say why and use evidence as proof.

    I'm going to analyze Babylon.

    Be the first to discover writing, monarchy and code of laws.
    The Code of Ur-Nammu, made in Sumeria (Technically Babylon), is the oldest surviving Code of Laws today, made in 2100-2050 BC. That suggests that Babylon teched CoL in 2050 BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu
    Of course, based on Civ IV teching, we know that Code of Laws can't be researched unless you tech writing first, so the Babylonians must have teched writing and Code of Laws.

    Babylonians have used Monarchy starting 1830 BC, suggesting they might have teched Monarchy within that time. There is proof that Egyptians have had a monarchy in 3100 BC under king Menes, but there is no archeological evidence to support that. Also, Egyptians have a special power that grants them Hereditary rule, so they don't count.

    Most other ancient civs did not have Monarchies until 1000 BC. There is not enough evidence to prove that Mayans had a Monarchy before Babylonians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Dynasty_of_Babylon

    Be the #1 most populous and most cultural city in the world in 850BC and 700BC.
    Babylon was known as one of the first cities to reach to population 200,000. The fact that they had writing earlier on suggests they might have built a library which would give them an edge in cultural influence, though I would argue that Egyptians might have beaten them.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
     
  2. Steamwerks

    Steamwerks Warlord

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    I like your analysis :), but must point out that Ur III is quite distinct from the Babylonian State. I think you have to go with the Code of Hammurabi.
     
  3. AdamCrock

    AdamCrock Polish Pudding

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    Interesting topic. For starters I would say there's one UHV that really bugs me - It is shared for England, Carthage and Greece Civs "Be the first to circumnavigate the globe". Why them ?! As we all know the first man to even vaguely attempt this was Ferdinand Magellan - Portuguese in origin! ;) (He died in the Philippines but the expedition was completed - even though the original goal was only to reach spice "lands" sailing westwards :
    "Magellan had not intended to circumnavigate the world, only to find a secure way through which the Spanish ships could navigate to the Spice Islands; it was Elcano who, after Magellan's death, decided to push westward, thereby completing the first voyage around the entire Earth." ) - Juan Sebastián Elcano was a Spanish captain.

    The Journey itself was funded by the Spanish king Charles I because the Magellan's quarrel with Kingdom of Portugal.

    "In 1517 after a quarrel with King Manuel I, who denied his persistent demands to lead an expedition to reach the spice islands from the east (i.e., while sailing westwards, seeking to avoid the need to sail around the tip of Africa[9]), he left for Spain."

    quotes from : (Ferdinand Magellan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan)

    Curiously enough Spain doesn't have "circumnavigation" as their UHV ! :O Well Magellan eventually died on the Philippines but his expedition (though severely decimated - 18 starved man out of the original 270 aboard the only surviving ship "Victoria" - only 1 out of the initial fleet of 5 ships) was completed.

    Fun fact - Magellan Fleet consisted of 5 ships : Trinidad, San Antonio, Concepcion, Santiago and Victoria. While Trinidad was a caravel, the other ones were Carraks :D
     
  4. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    As for Carthage, there are rumours that suggest that Moorish peoples reached the Americas first, having the capabilities, and therefore the potential to circumnavigate the world. However, I don't know how much evidence there is to prove that. It does confuse me though that three civs would have the same goal.

    I might analyze some other civs soon. If anyone else can analyze they are free to do so.
     
  5. calibur

    calibur Prince

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    In RFC Babylon represents all of Mesopotamia, or at least Mesopotamia is under their jurisdiction.
     
  6. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    I feel as though those are goals that make sense with the Civ's general orientation and goals - especially England. I believe Rhye has stated that most Civs have for their UHV two goals that they actually attained and one that they failed to attain. Assuming this, it makes sense.



    As for who accomplish theirs? I believe France did, didn't they? They definitely built Notre Dame, the Statue of Liberty, and the Eiffel Tower, and Paris was arguably the cultural capital of the world in the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe the goal requires them to hold on to their New World territories longer than they actually did?
     
  7. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    Okay, it's time for me to investigate Arabia.

    Conquer or make vassal states of Egypt, Carthage and Spain by 1300 AD

    Certainly accomplished it, and in 750 AD too. Quite impressive for 15 turns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

    Control 3 holy shrines in 1300 AD

    If we assume that Jerusalem has the Temple of Solomon and Church of the Nativity, while we know that the Masjid al-Haram was completed during Caliph Umar's time.

    Jerusalem was controlled by the Mamluks from 1250 to 1517 AD. Arguably, we can say those are Egyptians, but we know that nationalism hasn't been researched yet, so we can't say that they were there at the time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

    Spread Islam to 40%

    1.57 billion followers, only laying at around 23% of the world population, so we can't say Arabia completed this yet. However, it is one of the fastest growing religions around the world. Arabia has about 36 more years to accomplish this one, before the game ends.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
     
  8. JoeyB98

    JoeyB98 King of Ohio

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    America:
    Allow no European colonies in the North and Central America and the Caribbean in 1930 AD
    No, unfortunately. The Brits had Belize, some islands, Newfoundland, and arguably Canada. The French had Guadeloupe and some other Caribbean islands.
    Build the UN, the Statue of Liberty, and the Pentagon by 2000 AD
    UN: 1945
    SoL: 1886
    Pentagon: 1943
    It could be argued that the French built the SoL, but as it is in New York, I think we can agree America took this one.
    Secure 10 oil resources by 2000 AD
    How are we supposed to know, really? What, in IRL terms, is an "oil source"?
     
  9. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    Actually, there are posts about this subject. Rhye's has it's own subforum and I remember a thread like this running 5 pages. To see the discussions in RFC, look at the top bar for "Hosted Sites". Rhye's mods is one of them and then go to to Civ4 discussions. You'll find a lot of discussion specifically to RFC there (my favorite mod by the way).

    As Miles Beyond pointed out, the UHV includes goals the Civ failed to attain. After all, you have to do better than the original civilization did and accomplish something they failed to.
     
  10. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I think it depends on the average amount of oil we extracted from :cowboy: country, and how many oil resources are in :cowboy: country in Civ. Then, we could figure out a scaling factor and look at our oil imports from areas besides :cowboy: country and see if we exceed 10 sources.
     
  11. mourndraken

    mourndraken King

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    what is UHV ? :aargh:
     
  12. calibur

    calibur Prince

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    Unique Historical Victory, in the mod Rhye's and fall of civilization.
     
  13. JoeyB98

    JoeyB98 King of Ohio

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    Anyone else care to take a go?
     
  14. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I think Egypt has achieved the first two goals at least, maybe the third too. Really depends on how we count culture.
     
  15. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Well, Germany has failed a few--they haven't completed the tech tree since we can't go to Alpha Centauri yet, and their world conquest goals have fallen short.
     
  16. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    Given that "culture" is a slippery concept, here's a couple it could be argued accomplished their UHV.

    Babylon - first to research requirements were met by them as much as anyone. Hard to argue against the culture if we give them the Hanging Gardens and a few others that might not be in the game (Ishtar Gate). Babylon was one of the largest cities in the world at that time - it's hard to be exact at that time.

    Arabia - by 1300 they controlled the territory although it later broke away. Mecca and Jersulem give them Shrines. Islam to 40% of the world they might have missed.

    France - Paris most culturally advanced? The French would argue in favor of that. They built the wonders, although they gave one of them away (RFC does say build and giving away a wonder isn't in the game). They colonized Quebec and Louisiana as much as anyone.

    Vikings - a lot of their conditions don't fit too well. The gold requirements - what does gold in RFC represent in the real world? First to found a city in America (being generous with the term city) even if it was abandoned or wiped out (size 1 city was captured?). They sunk 25 ships somewhere along the line.
     
  17. stoferb

    stoferb Prince

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    Yeah, vikings founding a civ4 "city" doesn't seem right. In civ4 a city is pretty much equivalent to the capital of a province of some kind. What the vikings founded in america were small outposts to supply greenland with timber and tradegoods. And greenland itself in civterms would be a 1 population "city".
     

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