Which female leaders would you want for various civilizations?

[Rac]

Just leaving wishes for 2 Brazilians:
Maria Quitéria and Empress Leopoldina would be wonderful choices for a change of pace from Pedro II

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

No, the Lucretia whose rape by Tarquinius led to Brutus overthrowing the monarchy and establishing the Republic.

 

[mitsho]

Zenobia seems like a prime candidate now that we don't need a civ for her.

Otherwise, dazzle me. Give me someone I don't know.

I hadn't heard about Amina, and she seems like a great choice.

So looking forward to whoever they present.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Now we can have Tomyris and the Huns now that leaders and civs are separate
Although I want Attila too.

 

[ColtSeavers]

I’ve never been of the persuasion that Civilization needs an equal amount of male and female leaders, nor a believer of the idea now in vogue that demographic representation is a first order value, but seeing as Firaxis probably leans towards those mindsets, and given that female leaders certainly add an aesthetic variety to the game, it’s an interesting thought experiment to ask which prominent females from history* would be fitting leaders* of their respective civilizations in the game.

There’s no need to limit your answer to only announced or likely civs, nor to omit civs with leaders already announced, nor to exclude female leaders for civilizations which would be better led by a male countryman.

*Or pseudo-history, legends, or mythology. The actual historical record can at times be scant regarding females
**leader strictly in the game mechanic sense, not necessarily a political leader per se.

I’ll get things started (in alphabetical order):

• America - Jackie Kennedy
• Anglo-Saxons - Lady Godiva
• Argentina - Eva Perón
• Britons - Boudica, Guinevere
• Byzantium - Saint Helena, Theodora
• Carthage - Dido
• Egypt - Cleopatra, Nefertiti
• England - Elizabeth I, Victoria
• France - Joan of Arc, Marie Antionette
• Germany - Gudrun
• Greece - Helen, Hippolyta
• Hawaii - Liliʻuokalani
• Israel - Ruth
• Norway - Lagertha
• Persians - Esther
• Powhatan - Pocahontas
• Rome - Lucretia, Rhea Silvia
• Russia - Anastasia
• Shoshone - Sacagawea
• Spain - Isabelle

I am German and I have never heard of Gudrun. Who ist that?

 

[Patine]

• Argentina - Eva Perón

I really have no idea why people are so hung up on Eva Peron as being a stellar leader, and often the most preferred, male or female, for a potential Argentinian civ (and she even got in in Ara). I can't fathom it, or what so many see in her. A movie starring Madonna with a catchy song she wrote and sang? Eva Peron was more or less the pretty face of her husband's tyranny, and not much role beyond that. Most of the others on your list I have little problem with, and some, like Bouadiccea, I've wanted back for a while, but Eva Peron and her inexplicable popularity is something that sticks out at me.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Ignore this, even if there is a bit of logic that may still hold true. After thinking things through even more, a more finalized female wishlist is here:

Which female leaders would you want for various civilizations?

I agree. I would love to have one, but as I said... who would it be? There's no single notable character. Oh right, some people mentioned Michiel de Ruyter, I just remembered. He could maybe work, but to be honest he might be a bit too niche. Oh, I can think of a very high profile Dutch...

forums.civfanatics.com

So I get the sense that VII is using leaders more as a sort of "glue" to better hold together these historical/regional throughlines across the eras. I'm calling them "magnet leaders." Here are the female leaders I think stand good odds of being in the game at some point because of their overall "stickiness" with broader regions/eras:

Highly likely to be in base game:

* Soma - This choice would really help solidify Khmer's antiquity position, as well as be a great leader to progress through/into Majapahit, Siam, Vietnam, Burma, Champa, etc., as the Funan kingdom controlled pretty much the entire SEA peninsula, and Soma was known for being a little piratey so she hits some Indonesia and Singapore/Ching Shih themes. She is an amazing all-rounder for the region. Themes: maritime, trade, a little guerrilla-ish/piratey. (EDIT: I think Rama IV is more likely at launch, but that we will see Soma as the SEA DLC pack leader).
* Nafanua - She would do the same thing for Tonga -> Maori -> Hawaii that Soma would do for Southeast Asia. A Samoan chieftan who became mythologized in Polynesian culture. Themes: chilling on the beach, but also war. (EDIT: I think her chances are still quite decent, although we may see a male Tu'i Manua instead; I am still betting the Polynesian leader is Samoan).
* Urraca - I've been convinced that the first queen regnant, self-declared Empress of Spain, and defacto ruler by right or by marriage to all five Spanish kingdoms makes her the best "origin" story for Spain. Represents the other end of Spain's height, I think she's solid. (EDIT: I think Spain is the least likely of the Euro big 5 to get a leader at launch. Given that the preferred Spain pathways at launch, I think, is going to be Rome/Numidia -> Spain -> Italy/Morocco/(Gran Colombia/Mexico?), the way the pathways are sorting out after Augustus (and Simon/Benito), I just think a Numidia -> Songhai -> Morocco leader is more likely than a Numidia -> Spain -> Italy or Numidia -> Spain -> Morocco leader. Swapping Urraca with Sayidda al Hurra, pegging Urraca for an Iberia DLC with Phoenicia/Al Andalus, Portugal/???. But if we still do get a Spain leader pathway, Urraca is probably in.)
* Olga of Kiev - I just don't see Kievan Rus' happening as a civ, it's not mechanically that different from Poland, Byzantium, or anything Russian (or Slav), and all three of those are absolutely going to be civs. BUT using a Kievan leader as a means of gluing all three of those civs together would be brilliant: Kiev covered Poland-Lithuania territory, was very culturally decendant from Byzantium, and she conquered the Slavs. Themes: militaristic badassery. (EDIT: reassessing, I think Olga will be a leader for Slavic Europe DLC; we are more likely getting Byzantine and Russian leaders at launch first, so I'm pushing Irene of Athens up, as well as maybe Elizabeth of Russia).
* Maria Teresa - I think she is returning as well. Just so much territory under a single person, she can realistically progress to and from so many other European civs, and then we don't need boring Austria to appear as a civ again, and far more interesting Hungary or Bohemia can fill that artsy Alpine role. Themes: ALL OF THE CULTURE.
* Elizabeth - She's the least likely, I think, but I do still think her odds as a "start" of the "British Empire" may sneak her into the base game. Though personally, I think more interesting choices for an English magnet leader would be Aethelstan or James VI, depending on if we are talking about the unification of England, or the unification of Britain. Themes: Cate Blanchett. (EDIT: I now think she is even less likely, I just think James fits the ideas of VII better and she is more likely to be pushed to DLC)
* EDIT: per below: adding Sayyida Al Hurra, Irene of Athens/Elizabeth of Russia.

Pretty likely to be DLC/expansion:

* Irene of Athens - I think we are going to get a switch-up from Theodora if we get a female Byzantine leader. It could easily be male, but if female, I give Irene the edge since she better ties back to "Greece." Themes: lesbianism. (swapping her with Olga of Kiev, see above).
* Wu Zetian - We are getting Han, Ming, and Qing civs, and a Zhou leader. The next most appropriate eras to represent would be either the Qin or the Tang (I put Yuan as a toss-up and one that doesn't matter much to representing China). Between the two, Tang had a LOT of territorial influence, as well as better fleshes out the middle of the Chinese timeline instead of frontloading us with Zhao/Qin. We do already have vicarious Qin representation anyway with the terracotta army so my money is on Wu being a second or third Chinese leader. She's just an easy go-to. Themes: espionage.
* Margaret I - She honestly could be in the base game, but so far we have seen zero evidence of Scandinavian civs. I'm of two minds about Scandi leaders. If we get two leaders, it will be some norse explorer (take your pick) and Margaret, since she best represents the entirety of Scandinavian legacy. If we get only a single leader, it should be Margaret by rights. Themes: control freak. (EDIT: I think we are extremely likely to have Cnut as the Scandi leader at launch because he fits the idea of Vikings better. While Margaret still strikes me as the best second option, I think she geographically/temporally is very close to Cnut and might lose out to a Swedish leader instead. Sad, really.)
* Trung Sisters - Of Southeast Asia, I think in addition to a Funan leader we are going to see leaders for Siam and Vietnam, as they are the most persistent nations across all three eras in some form. Ba Trieu could return, of course, but if we want to go back even further to the older "spirit" of Vietnam, the Trungs outdate her by a couple centuries. The reason I think Vietnam's leader will be antiquity is that the Funans didn't really control north Vietnamese territory, so the idea of Vietnam is just as old as them and can comfortably coexist with leader representation, even if the "Vietnam" civ is likely going to be exploration era. Themes: defense! (Since Soma is likely DLC, I think we will get a male Vietnamese leader in that pack instead.)
* Zenobia - I don't really care much if Palmyra is represented, but she is a pretty obvious candidate for "huge expansionist cults of personality that don't really work as civs." I would not be mad if she made it in at all. Themes: just standing there looking imposing.
* Ranavalona - I think Buganda is hinting that we may see a Swahili Coast exploration civ. Which would be fantastic because Madagascar would be a great progression from both the Swahili and Indonesia/Chola. I think she's the biggest dark horse here, but Madagascar is just such a cool little bubble of its own culture that I could see the devs settling on it as a modern era African civ. Themes: luxury and mysticism. (EDIT: Nevermind, if we get a Madagascar leader it is probably Andrianjaka).
* EDIT: per above. adding Soma, Olga of Kiev, Elizabeth I, and Urraca (with Urraca being the leader I think is most up in the air between base and DLC).

I've got wants, and maybe some feelings that they might come true:

* Sayyida Al Hurra - We really do not have many female figures in Islamic culture. We don't have strong personalities of either gender to lead the Western Islamic sphere. I just think she would work very well as a counterpart to an east Arabian caliph, especially since she has impliedly loose ties to Iberia and the rest of that region. (EDIT: bumping her up to likely in base game and moving Urraca to DLC, see above.)
* Diyha - I peg her as less likely than Sayyida, but still has decent chances as a defining proto-figure of Berber/Amazigh identity. It really depends on how that region is represented in-game, though. If we get a Numidia civ, I don't think Diyha is all that necessary. But if we get some sort of Berber representation through the Amazigh or western caliphates, Diyha would be a great anchor to tie that region's throughline to. Also, a game with Zenobia AND Diyha AND Vercingetorix? Rome could never. (EDIT: I think Diyha's odds are lower in a world where Numidia progresses to Hausa led by Amina and Morocco led by Sayyida al Hurra. We may see Berber representation through a different civ and/or leader.)
* Grace O'Malley - If for whatever reason we do not get Sayyida Al Hurra as a leader, I think Grace O'Malley is a shoe-in for a pirate queen. I don't think we are getting an Ireland civ this time around, so this would be likely only way to represent it, and goodness knows that would sell well. EDIT: I could see Grace coming in a Celtic-ish pack with no real associated civ, as the true pirate she is.)
* Eleanor of Aquitaine - I just like her, okay? I don't think she represents "French" identity as well as Jeanne d'Arc, but I also don't like Jeanne d'Arc. I also prefer her over any Norman leader for that region/concept. I would rather turn the world pink again, thanks.
* Tamar of Georgia - I think Georgia's odds of returning are pretty solid. It wasn't super expansionist/diverse, but what it does have going for it is being very centrally located and having a LOT of cultural/trade ties with highly varied kingdoms/empires. I think it still stands as the strongest "empire" of the Caucusus. I don't think it steps on Armenia's toes, as we are more likely to get a leader/civ from antiquity era for them. And Tamar is just such a meme and beloved, they should bring her back.
* Tomyris - I'm most on the fence with her, since we don't seem to be getting a Scythia antiquity civ, and she is so likely to be replaced with Attila's return conceptually. I'm also rooting for Tygyn Darkhan as a new leader, which she kind of competes a bit with. But I really did like the vicarious Kazakh representation so she can come back if she wants.
* Wilhelmina - surprise Wilhelmina?! I don't know, I think I like her as the recurring face of the Dutch more than any Wilhelm. But will the Dutch even get a leader, do they need one in VII? I don't really think so.

(I would also peg Eva Peron as being fairly likely, even if I don't think Argentina needs a leader and she especially just doesn't stand up against these other women of history)

Losers:

* Puduhepa. Very narrowly missed the list given that (a) we don't need a full Hittite civ but representation would be nice and (b) some Anatolian representation before the Ottomans is appreciated. But I think she competes with Zenobia for a slot. It will likely be one or the other, but not both, and her odds are still fairly decent. (EDIT: I do think the Hittites' chances of returning are decent as a predecessor to Georgia, but I think Tamar really is the better choice to lead that civ pathway and Zenobia outshines Puduhepa as a leader for that general region. Puduhepa's chances are still not bad by any means, she could feasibly beat out both of them.)
* Isabella. She is like an Elizabeth/James VI to Urraca's Athelstan. But I think Urraca has some very unique qualities to her and works better as a Spanish origin story. Spain, however, is like Egypt, in that it will likely only be represented by one era, so they could go the route of just representing "Castile" and a closer idea to Spain's "height." It's a very close race between these two.
* Matilda of Canossa was in my running, but I think Lorenzo de Medici has to be our idea of "Italy" this time around.
* Liliuokalani would be a nice musician leader, but I think she's a bit too recent and Nafanua is just so much better for establishing a Polynesian throughline.
* Anacoana would be cool, I do think the Taino are likely to appear as a civ at some point, but isn't the language poorly documented? I think we are more likely to get a Haitian or even a pirate leader for the region.
* Nur Jahan. I long wanted her, but I think we are getting Ashoka and Gandhi, and unlikely to get a third Indian leader this time around. But if so, she's an obvious third choice.
* Jeanne d'Arc. Boring, overdone. Just bring back Eleanor, she is not boring.
* Every prior female civ leader not named: they just kind of bore me and aren't as good as these options within VII's "idea." Soma is better than Gitarja. Olga is better than Catherine and Jadwiga. Margaret is better than Kristina. Elizabeth/James VI/Aethelstan are better suited to VII than Victoria this time around. Irene is marginally better than Theodora and way better than Gorgo. The Trungs are really the same concept as Ba Trieu, only slightly better at representing the "start" of Vietnam and its rebellious/independent nature. Although I prefer Dido to Hannibal, Phoenicia doesn't need a leader anymore. Seondeok competes too much with Himiko conceptually and we are more likely to get a Joseon leader. I loved Lady Six Sky but I think we are getting Spear-Thrower Owl this time to better represent both Maya and Aztec (and Mexico as a whole). Boudicca is lamer than both Grace and any other likely Celtic leader.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I am German and I have never heard of Gudrun. Who ist that?

Gunnar’s sister, Brunhild’s rival, wife to both Sigurd and Atli (Attila), and the latter’s assassin. She’s a composite of several historical individuals, and Tolkien wrote a long narrative poem about her

 

[ColtSeavers]

Gunnar’s sister, Brunhild’s rival, wife to both Sigurd and Atli (Attila), and the latter’s assassin. She’s a composite of several historical individuals, and Tolkien wrote a long narrative poem about her

Ah ok, that's how you guys translate Kriemhild into English! Agreed, that would be an interesting choice, with the focus on Diplomacy and Military. Agenda: Revenge!

 

[FishFishFish]

Ranavalona

I really hope not. She was an awful queen. Massacring Christians, reinstating slavery, widespread use of torture. She effectively depopulated Madagascar, and ruined the work her predecessors had done to reform the country.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I really hope not. She was an awful queen. Massacring Christians, reinstating slavery, widespread use of torture. She effectively depopulated Madagascar, and ruined the work her predecessors had done to reform the country.

Yeah you are right, I am striking her out. Madagascar doesn't have good female options.

 

[Leyrann]

* Wilhelmina - surprise Wilhelmina?! I don't know, I think I like her as the recurring face of the Dutch more than any Wilhelm. But will the Dutch even get a leader, do they need one in VII? I don't really think so.

I've never been a fan of Wilhelmina, she was only ever a ceremonial head of state, never had any power beyond "hey guys, radioing in from safe England, don't give up, we'll be right back with you once you've been liberated by the Americans".

I don't think the Netherlands have any amazing historical characters to use (I've seen some people suggest Rembrandt but like, why? he was just a painter, wasn't even popular while he was alive), but I do think there are two who could compete with William of Orange.

The first would be Thorbecke, aka the Father of Dutch Democracy. When revolutions swept across Europe in 1848, King William II figured it was better to lose his power than his head and instructed Thorbecke, who had been advocating a democratic system for some time, to design said democratic system and transition to it.

The second is pretty unusual, but also perfect for Civ VII: Louis Napoleon (not to be confused with his son, Napoleon III). Yes, it's another Napoleon, but he was quite remarkable. When his brother gave him the job of King of Holland, he set out to do the job to the best of his ability. Learning Dutch, getting to know Dutch culture, et cetera. To such a degree, in fact, that he would prioritize the interests of the Netherlands over listening to his brother, which is why Napoleon Bonaparte eventually folded the Netherlands into the French Empire. Louis Napoleon was so popular, in fact, that when he traveled to the Netherlands thirty years later under a false name, people figured out who he was and a crowd came to cheer for him. After a rule of only four years! Now that's a leader for a game where anyone can lead any civilization.

...in fact, I should probably make a case for him over in the 'weird leaders until you think about it' thread.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Mine is non-civ specific (well mod only for sure)
- La Andromeda Promethium

Back to real life.
1. Eleanore d'Aquitaine (Any European)
2. Cleopatra VII (Any Mediterranean)
3. Sheba (Aksum)
4. Ekaterina (Imperial Russia)
6. Theodora (Either Rome, Greece, or Byzantium)
7. Elizabeth I (England)
8. (A leader of Mamluk I can't recall)
9. Maria Teresa (Austria or Germany)

 

[Guandao]

I really hope not. She was an awful queen. Massacring Christians, reinstating slavery, widespread use of torture. She effectively depopulated Madagascar, and ruined the work her predecessors had done to reform the country.

Yeah you are right, I am striking her out. Madagascar doesn't have good female options.

Can you really believe in biased European sources who had a vested interest in colonizing Madagascar? Just saying. Other leaders in Civ have persecuted Christianity before. It's nothing special. Ranavalona is being re-evaluated by scholars and historians.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I've never been a fan of Wilhelmina, she was only ever a ceremonial head of state, never had any power beyond "hey guys, radioing in from safe England, don't give up, we'll be right back with you once you've been liberated by the Americans".

I don't think the Netherlands have any amazing historical characters to use (I've seen some people suggest Rembrandt but like, why? he was just a painter, wasn't even popular while he was alive), but I do think there are two who could compete with William of Orange.

The first would be Thorbecke, aka the Father of Dutch Democracy. When revolutions swept across Europe in 1848, King William II figured it was better to lose his power than his head and instructed Thorbecke, who had been advocating a democratic system for some time, to design said democratic system and transition to it.

The second is pretty unusual, but also perfect for Civ VII: Louis Napoleon (not to be confused with his son, Napoleon III). Yes, it's another Napoleon, but he was quite remarkable. When his brother gave him the job of King of Holland, he set out to do the job to the best of his ability. Learning Dutch, getting to know Dutch culture, et cetera. To such a degree, in fact, that he would prioritize the interests of the Netherlands over listening to his brother, which is why Napoleon Bonaparte eventually folded the Netherlands into the French Empire. Louis Napoleon was so popular, in fact, that when he traveled to the Netherlands thirty years later under a false name, people figured out who he was and a crowd came to cheer for him. After a rule of only four years! Now that's a leader for a game where anyone can lead any civilization.

...in fact, I should probably make a case for him over in the 'weird leaders until you think about it' thread.

I mean we already have Napoleon as a leader, so I guess in a way the leadership under either Napoleon is symbolically covered if/when the Netherlands is added?

I think the Dutch are very likely not to have a leader in VII. They will likely have a good mix of options between Napoleon DLC, probably Charlemagne, probably the HRE, probably Spain, probably Maria Teresa.

Can you really believe in biased European sources who had a vested interest in colonizing Madagascar? Just saying. Other leaders in Civ have persecuted Christianity before. It's nothing special. Ranavalona is being re-evaluated by scholars and historians.

I'm not opposed to pushback against Christian colonialism, nor do I think we can't have female villains. Even still, I think Andrianjaka is more likely as a greater influence on establishing the kingdom and culture.

 

[Leyrann]

I think the Dutch are very likely not to have a leader in VII.

I agree. I would love to have one, but as I said... who would it be? There's no single notable character.

Oh right, some people mentioned Michiel de Ruyter, I just remembered. He could maybe work, but to be honest he might be a bit too niche.

 

[RandV]

One that would have been hard to classify to a single Civ, I want to see Malintzin/La Malinche. The Nahua woman who was the MVP of the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and symbolic mother of the Mestizos. Not sure how contentious she is in modern day central America though.

 

[Patine]

3. Sheba (Aksum)

There was actually no Queen of Aksum named, "Sheba." In the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament of the Christian Bible, Solomon, the last King of a United Kingdom of Israel before it split into the separate Kingdoms of Judah and Israel (Samara) after his death, married a highly beloved, but unnamed, Queen of Sa'aba (bastardized by linguistic drift to Sheba), an Ancient Yemeni Kingdom across the Red Sea from Aksum, whom the Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox Church and Imperial historiography call Makeda, as the purported Mother of the Solomonic Dynasty of Emperors of Ethiopia, but that name is unique to their tradition.

 

[Patine]

I'm not opposed to pushback against Christian colonialism, nor do I think we can't have female villains. Even still, I think Andrianjaka is more likely as a greater influence on establishing the kingdom and culture.

I don't think the game should take an authorial bias on it. Christian colonialism, and it's atrocities, and atrocities done to resist it, are both parts of our history, and who and what we are, and what we have to learn from, like it or not.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I don't think the game should take an authorial bias on it. Christian colonialism, and it's atrocities, and atrocities done to resist it, are both parts of our history, and who and what we are, and what we have to learn from, like it or not.

I do think VII can get away with depicting atrocity better now that (a) leaders are treated as entities separate from civs and (b) it seems we aren't getting any representation of current polities that might affect nationalist sentiment/strife.

By contrast, I think VI, the game which leaned the hardest on specifically modern national identities, had to be a lot choosier with its leaders and couldn't really afford to paint anyone in a bad light.

There was actually no Queen of Aksum named, "Sheba." In the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament of the Christian Bible, Solomon, the last King of a United Kingdom of Israel before it split into the separate Kingdoms of Judah and Israel (Samara) after his death, married a highly beloved, but unnamed, Queen of Sa'aba (bastardized by linguistic drift to Sheba), an Ancient Yemeni Kingdom across the Red Sea from Aksum, whom the Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox Church and Imperial historiography call Makeda, as the purported Mother of the Solomonic Dynasty of Emperors of Ethiopia, but that name is unique to their tradition.

Now that civs don't need leaders and leaders don't need civs, Queen of Sheba actually could work in VII. If we call her Bilquis, I guess I could stomach her as a magnet leader for civs around that region. I just don't particularly care about Bible-mining for historical figures.