Which is more important?

[Full Metal]

What would you do? Plant your original city next to a river, or go one tile off and plant it next to a mountain?

 

[sufficiency]

River is more important.

 

[Merenptah]

River is more important.

River IS important. But city next to a river much less so.

1) You need to count and compare the number of river tiles in a 3 range radius around your chosen starting location. If they are the same then Mountain is better. You loose the ability to build the Water Mill, but that's a small thing compared to a 50% Science boost. And you also loose the ability to build the Hydro Plant later on, but that comes at a point when it's pretty much decided whether you will win or not.

2) In fact, if the mountain location has more river tiles (in 3 range radius) than the river starting location (unlikely but possible) then it doesn't even matter because with Civil Service that extra tile will compensate for the loss of the Water Mill.

3) If there are significantly less river tiles in the location next to the mountain, then yes River start will be better.

 

[sufficiency]

River IS important. But city next to a river much less so.

1) You need to count and compare the number of river tiles in a 3 range radius around your chosen starting location. If they are the same then Mountain is better. You loose the ability to build the Water Mill, but that's a small thing compared to a 50% Science boost. And you also loose the ability to build the Hydro Plant later on, but that comes at a point when it's pretty much decided whether you will win or not.

2) In fact, if the mountain location has more river tiles (in 3 range radius) than the river starting location (unlikely but possible) then it doesn't even matter because with Civil Service that extra tile will compensate for the loss of the Water Mill.

3) If there are significantly less river tiles in the location next to the mountain, then yes River start will be better.

Without river, you cannot build Water Mills, Garden, AND Hydro Plant.

 

[Deau]

I have to agree w/ sufficiency that I favor river over mountain for capital. The only exception would be if there were massive heavy food ressources within 2 tiles of the next-to-mountain settlement spot. I'd then make sure to plan my game according to the steep lost of hammers in the late game.

Unless I play 1-2 city super tall strat, I don't overly worry about garden in capital. I do however have a huge bias towards the watermill growth. In most case scenarios the extra science earned earlier in the game through higher pop/faster paced growth helps me catch up to deity AIs faster than delaying education sightly more in order to get a shot at observatory.

 

[Merenptah]

Without river, you cannot build Water Mills, Garden, AND Hydro Plant.

Yes, I forgot about the Garden which indeed is VERY important (more than the other two IMHO). Nice thing though on levels Emperor or below, if you manage to build The Hanging Gardens, you get a free Garden EVEN if the city is not next to a river.

 

[joncnunn]

What would you do? Plant your original city next to a river, or go one tile off and plant it next to a mountain?

I'd plant on the river.
Now if its an OCC, time to reroll since you'll want both when limiting yourself to just one city.

 

[Miravlix]

I'd plant on the river.
Now if its an OCC, time to reroll since you'll want both when limiting yourself to just one city.

ThreeM the perfect start.

Mountain, Marble and Moat.

Actually thinking about it's it's four items, Moat*cough*River, Mountain, Marble, Many Gold/Silver.

 

[Merenptah]

ThreeM the perfect start.

Mountain, Marble and Moat.

Actually thinking about it's it's four items, Moat*cough*River, Mountain, Marble, Many Gold/Silver.

What about Desert ...

 

[Browd]

Mojave

 

[joncnunn]

What about Desert ...

Only if your not playing on such a high level that you can't build Petra due to AI bonuses.

 

[kirbdog]

Putting a vote in here that observatory > water mill, especially for the capital. The water mill is a stacking benefit that can be obtained through any source of 2 food and 1 hammer (think CS friends). The observatory is a unique benefit that increases the science multiplier before research labs from 83% to 133% (or 100% to 150%) and that's big. It's remarkably similar to preferring a riverside start over being able to build the National College (if such a choice were on the table).

The garden is not even necessarily worth the hammers if you have many cities pushing the costs of great scientists up quickly. The hydro plant is nice enough but not a bigger benefit because it comes much later.

 

[sufficiency]

Putting a vote in here that observatory > water mill, especially for the capital. The water mill is a stacking benefit that can be obtained through any source of 2 food and 1 hammer (think CS friends). The observatory is a unique benefit that increases the science multiplier before research labs from 83% to 133% (or 100% to 150%) and that's big. It's remarkably similar to preferring a riverside start over being able to build the National College (if such a choice were on the table).

The garden is not even necessarily worth the hammers if you have many cities pushing the costs of great scientists up quickly. The hydro plant is nice enough but not a bigger benefit because it comes much later.

I can make the same argument about Observatory though. They come way too late and I rather have the city to have +1 gold by settling on a river tile and get Water Mill.

If I am playing on a water map, yes I will consider Observatory beeline. But on land maps I don't see any reason to get it before Public School.