Which move to make? (Early game)

[cleverhandle]

OK, I'm trying to get myself in the proper count-the-shields-worker-micromanaging-expand-like-mad state of mind to get a solid start at Emperor. I think I did an OK job up to the first settler, managing to pump out two warriors and a spearman before popping the settler right on time at turn 20 (no bonus food, unfortunately).

So now I've got the position you can see here. I had planned to settle my second city right where my settler is positioned - that would give me a coastal city, 3 BG's (one underneath the worker almost finished), CxxC, and auto-pop the hut (which will give something good, correct?). But then a turn or two before that warrior at the bottom spotted the almighty cow. That puts me in a bit of a quandary. If I settle where I intended (current position), I won't get the cow until I either expand or pop another settler (18 turns away). If I settle one square southwest, I get immediate cow power but then am 1 square off the coast and CxxxC. If I settle one square west, I get the cow, but I'm CxxxC, burn one BG by settling on it, and lose access to the almost-improved square under my worker. Besides my fear that waiting to get the cow will deprive me of necessary early food, my first warrior has sighted the Indians and Dutch at the edge of my explored area to the north. So I think I want my third city to be in that direction so as not to get too boxed in. The cow can't wait that long!

Decisions, decisions... if you know successful Emperor+ starts what would you do?

 

[DaveMcW]

Goody huts are NOT good on emperor - 2 out of 3 will have barbarians! Think about your nearby workers and treasury before you pop any huts.

Settling on the BG is not so bad - you will get the shield back after you reach size 7.

 

[nullspace]

You could settle on the hill south of the cow, and then later build a city where your settler is standing. This will get the cow ASAP (which is the most important thing) and avoids popping the hut. Once the second city is founded, you have both bonus grassland and two cities at CxxC spacing. Either city can work the cow a that point.

 

[killercane]

I would factor in it that will take less worker turns to get irrigation to the cow by moving 1 SW, and you can move that warrior up for some more protection if you delay settling. With the hills, mountains, and fur forest it would be a very productive city despite the loss given by the coastal tiles. If you settle in place I would cover your worker with the spear in your capital.

 

[cleverhandle]

Wait a sec... but isn't it the case that if I "auto-pop" the hut (my wording = I settle right next to it without actually walking on it) that I can't get barbs? That's what the linked thread seems to indicate.

As to the city position, both of you make good points. I think I'm leaning toward settling west, on the BG. That would still leave one more BG plus the cow to work on until the city hits pop 3, which it will probably rarely stay at for very long. Then another city could work nicely on the hills 2 south of the cow (and would be a production powerhouse late game). Also, I'm thinking that I might want to wait to settle the hilly south country until after I can see iron (in 14 turns) so that I can pick an optimal spot if it shows up there. I'm concerned that moving all the way down to the hill 1 south of the cow will take too many turns (2 extra turns, plus the worker turns). Null, you don't consider that time to be too much?

 

[cleverhandle]

You posted while I was pondering. Yet another opinion to consider...

I would factor in it that will take less worker turns to get irrigation to the cow by moving 1 SW...

Whoa... I hadn't even considered irrigating the cow in the short term. It seemed too far off the river. That would be two squares to irrigate plus the cow square (though maybe it's more efficient to irrigate along the road... gotta count it). You would say that getting the 4 fpt over 3 fpt is more important than getting the cow and BG tiles improved faster?

 

[killercane]

I would personally probably settle in place and move the spear down to the worker if you pop barbs. But it seems you were concerned with early food, and having the industrious workers makes irrigating over a few tiles a bit more viable if you want to push some workers and settlers out of there, since the capital is devoid of bonus food.

 

[DBear]

Settling 1 from the coast is a bad thing. You can never improve the coast tiles.

 

[cleverhandle]

I would personally probably settle in place and move the spear down to the worker if you pop barbs.

So you would let the cow go until a third city?

But it seems you were concerned with early food, and having the industrious workers makes irrigating over a few tiles a bit more viable if you want to push some workers and settlers out of there, since the capital is devoid of bonus food.

Yeah, true about the industrious worker advantage in this case. It could make a significant difference here. And yes, I am concerned about food - no bonuses in the capital and there's nothing to the north except for some wheat far away that the Dutch are going to get in a turn or two. So I think irrigating the cow soon makes more sense - I should be able to set up a settler factory of some sort there.

I did some analysis from 2 turns before the screenshot (I'm reloading rather freely while I experiment and learn here - you can see this earlier position here ). I'm mostly just thinking out loud here, as I expect this is really boring if you're not playing my game. Anyway, here are some possibilities, taking the new position as turn 0:

1) Settle on BG NE of cow, irrigate cow ASAP via existing road - City settles on turn 4. Irrigation hits cow at turn 16. City gathers 30 shields at turn 16 and hits pop 3 and produces settler at turn 17 with no food overrun.

2) Settle on grass E of cow, irrigate cow ASAP via existing road - Same results as #1.

3) Settle on grass E of cow, irrigate cow working west from the river after waiting 1 turn to finish the road already started. City settles on turn 4. Irrigation hits cow at turn 14. City gathers 30 shields at turn 16 and hits pop 3 and produces settler at 17 with 2 food overrun.

4) As #3, but abandon the turn of work on the road. City settles on turn 4. Irrigation hits cow at turn 13. City gathers 30 shields at turn 16 and hits pop 3 and produces settler at turn 17 with 3 food overrun.

So no matter what I do, I've got my settler on turn 17. #3 and #4 have a worker advantage of getting the cow's road done by that same time. #2,3, and 4 will pop the hut. #1 puts me on the coast with what looks to be some more hills and mountains to the SW.

So #2 is out, as it offers me no immediate advantage - I wouldn't use the extra irrigated tiles on the road for quite a while. #4 is also out, since it offers nothing over #3 and leaves one less tile roaded.

That leaves #1 and #3. #3 provides a 3 worker-turn advantage and pops the hut (which I still think in this situation should be OK). #1 provides what should be a better mid-game position, though it loses one BG. #3 also provides somewhat more immediate access to the furs, but I don't think that should be a huge deal short-term (there are two other luxuries in my area!).

I think I'm going with option #1. The hut is almost guaranteed to be junk, and I think giving up 3 worker turns is worth the coastal position. But I'm still open to other opinions, and will probably go back and play out the position in different ways to see what happens. Thanks for reading...

 

[tR1cKy]

Settle in place, the cow will be yours anyway once you reach cultural rank 2. For city 3, i'll recommend 3 tiles south of Persepolis: you have a fish bonus, luxury bonus, river, coast...

EDIT: the regular spear should be enough to withstand the 2 barb that the hut will probably pop out.

 

[eldar]

You can't pop barbs from a hut if you pop it by settling next to it. So settling in place is fine.

Personally I'd have gone for the furs forest by the river and fish. Definitely send settler #2 there.

 

[Thrar]

I'd settle on the tile where you are now, getting the cow with a later city or culture expansion. Don't hurry that expansion, imo.
The next city I'd definitely put on the tundra furs 4 of the fish, or if you want tight spacing on the forest tundra furs 7 of the fish. Connect that one as soon as you can for the furs, and cut some of the grassland forests (given thanks to the other cities) to have workable land.
After that I'd probably go north to secure the diamonds with a city on the grass right in between them.

 

[cleverhandle]

I went with the BG NE of the cow and irrigated it immediately. I think this was a good play - the city (Pasargardae) was able to pump out archer/settler repeatedly from there on out. Overall, things are looking excellent - far, far better than my first Emperor game. To what extent that's based on better management and to what extent on luck I'm not sure. This map is definitely strong for building - weak in food bonuses and rivers, but strong in luxuries (three under my control and eventually one more from trade), three early contacts, and the geography has allowed me to box the AI's out of my area.

Settlers #3 and #4 I sent north of the gems, to keep the Dutch and Indians from getting the space and forcing them to attempt walking across my territory to settle further. After that I spread south, happily finding iron a little SE of Persepolis. I stuck steadfastly to the advice of building nothing but settlers, military, and workers. It's now 690 BC, I have 9 cities (tied for 1st with India and all on decent land) and will have #10 in a couple turns and #11 and #12 in good time, I have a military rated strong against everyone (I was able to tell both Gandhi and Abu Bakr to get off my land), trail in score slightly to India, have a significant power edge, and have tech parity (got lucky with a late hut, but I'd only be one back anyway). Republic is 20 turns away, by which time I should have enough population (still almost all 1-3 pop so far) that I should be able to get a great economy going. My only land border is with the Dutch at the isthmus above the gems and it's stacked with 2 spears, 2 archers, and 2 immortals. Things are looking almost rosy.

One thing I'm realizing is that, at this level, you really have to follow the map and follow your strengths - you can't impose a playstyle even slightly if those don't work with it. In my first Emperor game, I was trying to make a building game out of a warmonger map - I had iron, but only one lux, two contacts who were well ahead of me, with the Romans close to my SE, and a big open continent with no chokepoints. I should have beelined for Monarchy, gotten 4 or 5 core cities started, and gone straight to cranking out Immortals to throw at Caesar before he had too many legionaries. Instead, I puttered around on the tech tree, let my military get too weak, and ended up in a war with Caesar which I survived (took a Roman city in fact) but didn't really make the most out of. I ended up with Monarchy too late and was several techs behind by the Middle Ages. At some point I'm going to go back to Monarch and play one of the AW variants to get some more warmongering practice - I'm a builder at heart, especially during Ancient Times.

I've attached the game - comments and suggestions are always appreciated.

 

[cleverhandle]

@eldar and Thrar - I held off on the furs because I knew I'd be getting Silks soon from a more useful position - you can't see them in the screenshot, but they're just east of Persepolis. City #5 grabbed the Silks, #6 got the iron, and #7 got the furs IIRC. The gems aren't quite in my borders yet, but they will be soon enough and there's nowhere for the AI to settle to snag them.

 

[Abdomination]

Wait a sec... but isn't it the case that if I "auto-pop" the hut (my wording = I settle right next to it without actually walking on it) that I can't get barbs? That's what the linked thread seems to indicate.

My experience is auto-popped huts never yield barbs.

I always go for the "almighty cow" no matter what