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Which National Wonders Do You Build in Your Capital?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by CivMcNut, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. Nexlev

    Nexlev King

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    655
    I almost always try to make my capitol a cottage city and end up putting oxford there, or wall street on rare occasion.

    Sometimes I'll settle my capital in a food rich location only to find out that there are not any other good food sites around. If I can't take one from a neighbor then I end up putting NE in my capital and I might move the capital to a better cottage city, but not always.

    I've never put the HE in my capital but I can recall a few games (that I lost) where I wish I had.
     
  2. ben-jammin

    ben-jammin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
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    1,436
    I prefer not to build the NE/great library in the capital for obvious reasons. Once civil service is in you need all those tiles worked. HE and oxford seem like the no-brainers. The production boost on top of the bureau boost in a city that you want to be at a high population and never whip, it's the perfect fit. This obviously doesnt apply if you have a really hammer poor capital.
     
  3. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,663
    Lots of old discussion on combinations....

    September 2009
    September 2009
    July 2009
    March 2009
    January 2009
    Late December 2008
    Early December 2008
    August 2007
    March 2007
    February 2007
    January 2007
    July 2006
    June 2006
    Early June 2006
    May 2006
    March 2006


    My feeling is that any decisions about wonders in the capital has to start with Oxford. In games where the plan is to go deep enough into the tech tree that Oxford matters, it's hard to believe you'll have a better alternative than parking it in the city with the most mature cottages plus all the palace bonuses.

    Obsolete has shown that Oxford + National Epic can be very strong.

    Oxford + HE seems to be pulling two different directions at once, as late game generally means your capital is going to invest a lot of hammers in infrastructure, or wonders, and during that time all the Epic is doing for you is polluting your GPP pool.

    Oxford + Globe is superficially tempting, to work all the cottages right away. But unless you've got a lot of health lying around, you still get capped. Furthermore, the Globe really wants to abuse the population -- two turn whips, or drafting every turn, which isn't so great for a city that wants to be working cottages.

    Oxford + Moai statues? I'm not a big fan on land based maps, as you need to be working a lot of water tiles to make that play good. Perhaps on archipelagos.

    Oxford + Wall Street? It might make sense if you are playing the Hydra, but as a rule research and wealth don't pair well.

    Oxford + National Park? Except in an OCC, your capital probably shouldn't have any trees left.

    Oxford + Hermitage? I don't understand this combination at all. Usually when you care about culture, the capital has lots and plenty of it.


    For the games where Oxford doesn't make sense -- well, a lot of the other wonders aren't going to make sense either, simply because there's not enough time on the clock for them to pay off in any meaningful way.

    So you're left with National Epic, Heroic Epic, Globe Theater, and Moai Statues. Heroic Theater is amusing, but I'm not sure it really gets you much over splitting the two. Heroic Statues, and boat the world to death?
     
  4. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
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    Location:
    In isolation
    The most common national wonder in my capital is National Epic. It will be built when:

    1. The capital has more food than any other city.
    2. The capital has 1-2 plains cows as the only food resource, but a quite decent production. Bureaucracy-powered medieval wonder-spam is pretty good for GP generation.

    When case (2) is true, I'll very often end up building Ironworks in my capital as a replacement for Bureaucracy.
     
  5. toob

    toob Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    I played a game recently where I had setup a city to get the GrtLib (pre-chopped, settled marble, was heading to Lit).

    It was my 2nd city and I had 4 by the time I Oracle`d CoL. Confucianism was then founded in that city, and was the only religion on my landmass so it spread fairly rapidly.

    Eventually it was shrined from the Oracle GrtProph pts, so when Corp came around I built WallSt there. It had already had Oxford for a while with the GrtLib. (I had a 2 fish + pig city with NatlEpic, which is why it wasn't paired w Oxford like I usually do.)

    I found that it was nice to run merchants during 100% research and scientists during 0%. (I run binary research almost all game long almost every game.)

    This was a SpaceRace game so it ended relatively late. Corp isn't even around for most Domquest/Diplomation wins. But it seemed to work pretty darned well for me. (Note that this wasn't the capital, so it's a little off-topic.)

    Could you (or someone) be a little more explicit about this "rule"? (Quotes signifying I know it's not a hard rule, bc nothing is in Civ ;).) "As a rule, research and wealth don't pair well." Did I just luck into the only exception to it? Maybe I was so far ahead that suboptimal play didn't hurt me, so I didn't notice?

    And what's the Hydra?

    Ok, back on topic. I prefer to not put Oxford into the capital (meaning I prefer to not build the GrtLib there also, though when necessary it gets both). I figure that during Bureaucracy it wants to work tiles, not specialists, and even with an academy and Pyramids-Representation specialists the two free specialists just don't provide that much research at that point in the game. The GPP are nice, but I can still get them if I can get GrtLib in another city.

    Usually I put Ironworks in the capital as my last task while in Bureaucracy, since Steel is often my finish-the-game tech (such a sweet Lib target!).
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    25,654
    If I'm putting HE in the capitol, it isn't a serious :commerce: city and I'm not in bureaucracy.

    Viable on those "islands" type scripts.
     
  7. Strickl3r

    Strickl3r Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
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    470
    I also find myself building NE + TGL in the capitol quite often. I might build the palace elsewhere, but sometimes it's not needed to win the game.

    Rarely i build HE/NE in the same city(might be the capitol), when there is just no alternative. For example only few city cuirrassier rush bulbing game.
    It's just to get the advantage from the 100% unit production when i actually need it.

    If i have several good spots for all the stuff, i might not build a single National Wonder in the Capitol, since Oxford might not be worth it and in a normal game NE+maybe TGL and HE+ maybe Maoui and Globe Theater go in other citys.
     
  8. CivMcNut

    CivMcNut Having Fun At It

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    It looks like people are in pretty good agreement that Wall Street and Ironworks come so late in the game that they are not useful in a capital. Here lately, I find it hard to even have 6 banks built in my empire unless I've captured a lot of shrines, and then if I did, I would want Wall Street in my largest shrine city, which would never be my capital because I don't do that Buddism/Hindu start.

    HE does sound tempting a lot for military wins, but I feel like once I build that in a city I have to dedicate it to building troops most of the time to make it worthwhile. I don't know how other people's games go, but on my games, by the time literature comes around, there is usually some city in my empire besides my capital that is pretty good at spitting out hammers, and throwing HE there really turns that city into a military powerhouse that you can put off building things like banks, universities and other buildings.

    I do like Oxford, but the trouble I've been having with that lately is that it comes pretty late in the game too if you are warring a lot. By the time you have 6 universities up, the game may have already reached it's climax.

    I never remember putting that National Park one in my capital.
     
  9. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    Introducing the Hydra - it's one of those silly things that happens when two top players decide to present a demonstration well below their usual handicap.

    150 :hammers: Grocer
    150 :hammers: Market
    200 :hammers: Bank
    600 :hammers: Wall Street
    ---
    1100 hammers worth of population turns that aren't being multiplied by Oxford, etc.

    It's an opportunity cost question -- if you are playing the Research mini-game and the Wealth mini-game in the same city, then you aren't turning either of them up to 11. The Wealth multipliers do very little for the research side, and the research multipliers do less for the wealth side.

    Trying to compensate by cross hiring specialists doesn't really help - (a) because you are robbing Peter to pay Paul; and (b) if research is more valuable than wealth at time t, then scientists are more valuable than merchants. And vice verse -- your specialists are backwards to what your civ actually needs.

    You're also letting the priest slots go fallow.

    If your city is that much better at research than the second best choice, and that much better at wealth than the second choice, well... the object of the game is to win, "in a pinch, style can slide".

    BUT: the distribution of wealth and research in the game is mostly under the player's control. And the map that insists upon shaping those two alternatives into the same city is extremely rare (outside of variants, occ, and so on).

    That... that seems really odd.

    First, because Oxford and the Great Library are not part of the same era; there's some overlap, but Oxford is about what happens after Education, and the Great Library is about what happens before Scientific Method.

    Second, if the two free specialists "don't provide that much research at that point", then why are you bothering to multiply that research with Oxford and so on?

    Third, the capital is naturally biased toward research anyway (it's almost all of your research in the early game, so is often the best choice for your first library and first academy). In addition, the normalizer generally ensures that you've got sufficient production capacity for the wonder and the supporting infrastructure; it will normally have the most commerce, so likely the best research etc.

    It's not unheard of -- the old "specialist economy" themes often featured a bureaucratic wealth capital to pay for everything. But years later I think it's pretty rare, except when proving a point or executing a niche strategy.
     

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