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which of the 8 Civ specific characteristics do you guys like most?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Borderline, May 5, 2018.

  1. Borderline

    Borderline Chieftain

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    so far i beat through all the difficulty levels up to monarch. currently on another monarch difficulty playing ottomans (industrious, scientific) on Pangea map, and i'd have to say my favorite 2 civ qualities would be

    -industrious (your workers work faster), and religious (no anarchy when changing gov't and drastically shorter times). i was the aggressor against the incas under republic. late in the war, war weariness was doing me in, so when into anarchy for 8 turns to switch to communism but by then i killed them all off and there was no more war weariness.

    researched democracy in 4 turns then went into anarchy again for 8 turn, so that i could build up my economy; i knew i wasn't going to be attacked since my army was a threat, and i was in relative good terms w/all civs. having religious would have definitely saved me a whole lot of empty turns.

    i don't play island maps but if i do, i would surmise seafaring would easily be the top 1.

    i do like militaristic; greater chance to get promoted helps in early games when you just can't afford the time to build a barrack.

    scientific for 1 free advance seems a bit wonky. when i get to a new era, i choose the tech i want to research, then at the end of the turn it randomly chooses which of the tier 1 tech to give you??

    haven't played with agricultural and expansionist yet. i might give those 2 a shot just to get a feel for it.

    so what civ characteristics do you guys like the most? and at what diffculty level and map type?
     
  2. web25

    web25 Chieftain

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    I used to play mil and ind all the time.

    But by favorite is sci - cheap lib and unis, free techs...you can really pull ahead on the tree.

    I seem to get around the same leaders with civs w/out the mil trait, so i dont care for that as much.

    Religiois for the reason you mentioned really helps of i nave to switch to commie, but im in love with republic now.
     
  3. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    I consider religious to be quite weak. Doing more than the obligatory anarchy when switching to republic is a waste. Once in a republic donnot switch anymore. Enduring war weariness for a limited amount of turns is far more affordable than an anarchy period, even the 2 turns when being religious.

    In an early republic one tends to be short on population and workers and if you try to maximize workers the limited free unit support will drown your economy. So i would conclude that the best combination of traits is agricultural with industrious. Agricultural enables your towns to become cities early and industrious enables an afforderable amount of workers to keep up with your need for improved tiles.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  4. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Militaristic affects chances for promotions but not for generating elites directly, if I remember correctly.

    I agree with justanick about the power of agricultural and industrious, but that isn't what I like. What I like is scientific and seafaring or commercial. Alphabet and bronze working turn into the Colossus and free Republic, then cheap libraries and universities plus free techs. I guess I'm all about free stuff.

    If you work things correctly and have a bit of luck, you can get second tier techs for free at the age change (only in conquests, not PTW), which is really nice for fast diplomatic or space victories.
     
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  5. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Agri and Ind I find to be the best.
     
  6. WeirdoJoker

    WeirdoJoker Chieftain

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    I am currently playing the Mayans (Agri + Ind). I haven't decided if I like those characteristics or not ... usually I like Sci best.

    Is there a good way to plan a war playing Maya?
     
  7. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I find the seafaring to be my fave characteristic. being a nosy sort of female I like to see what's out there as soon as possible. I used to live by industrious but haven't played them in years.
     
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  8. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    Religious, because I hate having 8 turns of Anarchy in the mid to late game.
    Scientific, because I love getting that free tech.

    Honorable mention to seafaring, which is great on some maps but not so great on others.

    So let's look at the Civs:

    Babylon (R ans Sci): Great Civ
    Byzantines (Sci and Sea): A good Civ
    Spanish (R and Sea): Not as bad as people say, but not great.
     
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  9. Borderline

    Borderline Chieftain

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    how does scientific work with the free tech during the start of a new era? when i choose the tech that i wan't to research, i start to research it, and then either the next turn or same turn, it randomly assigns me a free tech?

    i agree with you on religious. i have the 8 turn wait on mid/endgame but i know later on when no one wants to mess with me i need to be an aggressor. so while i was building troops and improvements during democracy, i will eventually have to change it out to republic and the wait time is so long w/o religious.

    i haven't given agriculture a try but i will in my next game, and im confused to how scientific assigns you a free tech start of era as to which free tech it gives you
     
  10. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    I'm no expert on the game mechanics, but once you reach the next age, it randomly selects a free tech. You might also be getting free techs from the Great Library.
     
  11. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    The later does not depent on being scientific.
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Quintessence of Dust

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    No. Commerce is collected and tech-research is calculated at the beginning of the interturn, right after you press Space/Enter. When that commerce/research represents the last beakers you need for the last mandatory tech of your current era, the "We have entered a new era!" splash immediately appears.

    If you press "Great, let's play the game" at this point, you'll get the Scientific-Advisor pop-up saying "We have completed research on XXX", and when you choose your next tech to research, no beakers will be contributed to it until the following interturn. During the 'unit-movement' phase of the following turn, you will therefore still be able to change that choice without losing anything. And...
    The tech-target you choose also has no bearing on the (random) freebie-tech you get as a SCI-Civ (see below).
    I believe you get the free SCI-Civ tech as soon as you click on "Great, let's play the game!" on the new-era splash, i.e. before the Science-Advisor pop-up box appears. You can check whether I'm right about that, by going from the pop-up directly to the Science Advisor (F6) tech-tree screen: if I'm right, the freebie-tech box should now be coloured blue.

    Spoiler How to (try and) get what you 'want' as your freebie-tech... possibly :
    If I've understood the trick correctly (not guaranteed!), the above is why you should not immediately select "Great, let's play...!" but rather 'What's the big picture?", taking you to the tech-tree screen.

    From there you can then click through to the Domestic Advisor (F1) screen to temporarily zero all sliders*, then the Foreign Advisor (F4) screen to go and talk to all the SCI-Civs you know, to trade/gift them up to your current era and hopefully get their freebies, then back to the Domestic Advisor to reset your sliders, then back to the Science Advisor to choose your next tech to research. If there are enough SCI-Civs on the board that you can snag all the 1st-tier techs of the new Era, and your Civ is also Scientific, you will now get a (random) 2nd-tier tech as your freebie.

    But for this to work, it's very important to click only on the Advisor-heads (or use the F-keys) to move back and forth between the Advisor-screens — clicking 'X' on any screen will end the "WTBP?"-facilitated contact with your Advisors, and hence the foreign Civs.

    *
    Spoiler Trade renegotiation trick? :
    I recently 'discovered' (for myself, I'm sure the Civ3-pros have known about this since forever) that if an AI-Leader contacts you during the interturn to renegotiate a per-turn Lux-import deal while you are currently deficit-spending (which prevents you from offering new GPT payments), it is not necessarily a disaster that will immediately cause all your cities to riot due to Lux-loss.

    Assuming that the AI-Civ cancelled the deal simply because they want more cash rather than because they lost their excess Lux-resources(s), then — similar to the above freebie-tech trick — from the negotiating table you can click on your Foreign Advisor's face to go the F4 screen, then click on the Domestic Advisor's face to go and zero your SCI%- and/or LUX%-sliders for (temporarily) positive GPT-income, then click on your Foreign Advisor (or press F4, or click 'X') to go back to the negotiating-table. You can now make a new deal — likely paying a slightly higher price per turn (assuming you didn't also use the F1-screen to cycle through all your towns and sell off your Markets!), but ensuring your continued supply of Luxury(s).

    Just make sure that, before you tell the AI-Leader/Foreign Advisor "I'm all done", you remember to go back to the Domestic Advisor and reset at least the LUX%-slider (if necessary to prevent riots).
    You might want to check out this thread as well, if you haven't already.
     
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  13. Borderline

    Borderline Chieftain

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    ok i think i know why i got confused. when i finish researching a tech, or destroy a civilization, i always choose "whats the big picture", and never "Great, lets play the game". so if im scientific and enter the new era, out of habit i choose 'whats the big picture', and then i get confused because hey where is my free tech? so i just choose a tech that i want, and then when i check next turn i found out 1 of the tier 1 tech is blued out and researched.

    now i understand how the mechanic works, thanks!!.. also, nice tip about the freebee.

    a question about the trade negotiation trick. i noticed when i am in the negotiate screen with an AI civ, im unable to click any of my advisers on the left hand of my screen which would sometimes frustrate me since when a nation talks to me, i forget which color he is on my minimap. so when you say to click on the domestic adviser face, do you mean the face on the upper right corner? i never actually clicked his face before during trade negotiations, i guess its worth a try.
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Quintessence of Dust

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    Yes, sorta.

    I'm talking about the actual negotiation table, with their trade-goods on the left and your trade-goods on the right, and the 'They give/We give' box in the middle. You can't stop them from cancelling the deal when they tell you, you just have to say OK, but then you can ask to put a new deal on the table, and then, yes, you can click on your Foreign Advisor's face in the top right.

    That takes you to the F4 screen, with the circle of (AI) leaderheads, and from that screen you can get to the Domestic Advisor by clicking on her face (i.e. the uppermost icon of the 6 down the left side). Clicking 'X' from the Domestic Advisor screen, will take you back to the negotiation in progress.
     
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  15. Borderline

    Borderline Chieftain

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    yea clicking on the upper right face works. i understand what your saying. when its the AI's turn, they sometimes bring up negotiations with you, and its either, take it or leave it, but you can't modify the terms.

    so clicking on the advisers face on the upper left so you have access to all your advisers, and also still be in negotiations when you X out of it.
    something ill have to remember to try out when this happens.

    for the people that doesn't choose a religious CIV, is it NOT worth going to democracy in peacetime? i assume going scientific you can keep up with tech and city improvements.

    going agricultural and industrious i can't see how you can keep up with the AI CIV tech though.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    a bit off topic: but i read you usually shouldn't accept a tech trade on the AI's turn since they will trade among the other AI's on their turn.

    best to do it on your turn so you could trade the same tech to a different AI CIV for a different tech, or lux, or money, etc..
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    No, democracy is not worth it. Get to Republic ASAP and stay there, except for a few rare exceptions (always war or 100k). Keeping up in tech is not difficult, you just have to trade with the AI at emperor and above. (Below emperor it is possible to not trade and still stay ahead in tech, but it isn't necessarily a good idea to not trade.) Agricultural civs should be pretty big, with plenty of scientists to help with fast research, so that helps you keep up in tech.

    Maps definitely get traded immediately, but techs often don't. Think about how the AI are trading with each other before making a decision on trading on their turn. (Use CRp MapStat or CivAssist II to see the situation.) If it is a tech they can't or won't trade right away, it doesn't hurt to trade on their turn. Sometimes deals are only available on their turn - by your turn they may have made a deal with someone else.
     
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  17. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    Arguably it is not worth it even for religious civs.

    One should invert the question. How should one keep up with a civ that is agricultural and industrious? That combination will be the first have an economic powerhouse of say 10+ cities of size 10+. This way the base commerce will be high and production, too. A library is easily built. Universities take a bit longer, but even without them 4 turns per tech is doable.

    In an early republic workers and unit support are a major issue. The 2 gtp you have to pay for every worker exceeded free unit support have the potential to cripple your economy, but if you are lacking workers you will cripple your economy even more. So being industrious helps a lot with the commerce that remains available for research.

    In the upper difficulty levels the biggest challenge tends to be to survive long enough to create an empire of 10+ cities of size 10+. Once you have reached a proper economic output you have the means to steer AIs into war with each other. This attrition comes at the price of some gtp for you, but the price that the AI will effectly pay will be much higher and thus clearly worth your effort.
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Agricultural is definitely the strongest of the 8 traits, for every situation and for every desired victoy condition. "More food" equals "more everything".
    (Only slight drawback is, that it is a bit map-dependent: you need access to fresh water in order to benefit from it during the early game.)

    Which of the other traits is best as your second trait depends a bit on the circumstances.
    Industrious is of course a powerfull allround-trait, but sometimes one of the other traits can be more useful: for example on a lower difficulty level (Chieftain, Warlord, maybe up to Regent) on a large continent/pangaea and when shooting for a science victory, expansionist can be the most powerful: build 2-3 scouts and pop the entire Ancient Age from goody huts! The fastest space race victories (in the 500s AD) have been achieved this way.

    On the higher difficulty levels, seafaring (because of the extra commerce from coastal towns and as it starts with Alphabet) may be the only chance to achieve the Republic slingshot.

    Also on higher difficulties, where expansionist is useless (chances of finding an un-popped hut before the AI's extra units have popped them all are near zero, plus the probability of getting a tech from the hut is also very low), scientific is the best for space and UN victories.

    For quick & dirty domination/conquest games, militaristic is quite useful (ultra-early archer rush, half-priced barracks, more promotions to elite). Also on water maps the half-priced harbours can be quite useful (but seafaring would be even better on such a map).

    Commercial doesn't have much impact in the early game (where it matters most), because the extra commerce becomes significant only when you get metropolises (size-13+), which may be never... Don't really know, how much impact the reduction of corruption has early on? Justanick can perhaps say something about it. But in general I would say, commercial is not that useful. Mainly adds a little bonus in the late game, when it is already decided anyway...

    Religious is most useful for 100K victories, but otherwise seems completely worthless to me... You should switch governments only once per game, and that as early as possible, where the chance of getting 8-9 turns of anarchy is quite low. So "wasting" an entire trait, which should be beneficial for the entire game, on just this one single anarchy period, where it reduces the anarchy from let's say 3-6 turns to 2 turns, doesn't cut it for me. What does having 2-3 turns less of anarchy mean compared to playing the rest of the game with only one trait??

    So my order of preference:
    • Agricultural: the best of the best
    • Industrious: very strong
    • Seafaring, scientific: very strong most of the time
    • Expansionist, militaristic: strong in some circumstances, otherwise worthless
    • Commercial: not really useful, but also not completely worthless
    • Religious: good for 100K, otherwise completely worthless

    That is quite handy indeed! Thanks for pointing that out. (Never noticed so far...)

    Why would anybody want to switch to Democracy?? It gives you only disadvantages, no advantages!
    • First of all, you have to research two optional techs (Printing Press and Democracy), which can simply be skipped. Lot's of wasted research, that can be put into more important things. Let's say you need 10 turns for researching these two techs and then get unlucky with 8 turns of anarchy: that would be a total of 18 turns. So if you just skip that and stick with Republic, you will get to Railways 18 turns faster! (And the impact of Railways is huge!! A city making 15 spt can usually quickly be brought to 25 spt with Railways. And shortly after that you'll get the 100% bonus from Factories + Hoover. The production of the average city increases from 15 spt to 50 spt in a short time. Why delay all this with a detour to Democracy??)
    • Next you have the already mentioned extra anarchy period, which you will never be able to make up for.
    • And finally, after going through all this trouble, as a "reward" you get a government, which is even worse than Republic...! :D Higher war weariness and higher unit support! Why would you want that? The benefits of Democracy (slightly less corruption and faster worker speed) are not really significant, and certainly do not outweigh the disadvantages. Especially with a large empire, you will not pay any unit upkeep in Republic (3 free units per city), while under a Democracy you pay for every single unit, which slows down research even further. And the 150% worker speed is nice, but consider that if you skip that Democracy detour, you will get to Replacable Parts much sooner (similar to what I said about reaching Steam Power/Railways much sooner) and Rep Parts gives you 200% worker speed!
    So all in all I would say: by going for Democracy you waste a huge amount of resources and get a penalty in return instead of a benefit... :D
     
  19. justanick

    justanick Chieftain

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    The extra commerce becomes significant when you get cities which you need as early as possiblee. Agri + Commercial is quite powerful and arguably this also gives the most powerful UU.

    At city size commercial gives 2 additional base commerce, metropolises enjoy 3 additional base commerce.

    In communism commercial or not means the difference between 27 base commerce and 30 base commerce, so that is more than +10% on net commerce. In commuism the lowered rank corruption due to commretcial can be ignored.

    In a republic the effect of lower rank corruption does exist, especially before having completed all corruption reducing buildings. Once everything has been build the effect on corruption dimishes to something in the magnitude of 2.5% to 5%. So together with the 47 instead of 44 base commerce that again totals to about +10%. Commercial cleary has the potential to outshine scientific when it comes to research. The big question is whether this will make a dent before it does not count due the the lower threshold of 4 turns per tech.

    Only at Sid is is near impossible to reach and maintain 4 turns per tech. There commercial will excel in the long run, even though its usefulness is mitigated by the rank corruption mali of the high difficulty setting. There real trouble is surviving for commercial to unfold its potential.
     
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  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    My recollection may be wrong, but the numbers I remember are 1 additional commerce for city size and 3 for metropolis size.

    This is exactly my point: in the early phase of the game (which is the most crucial phase, especially on the higher levels), you don't have any cities yet, not to mention metropolises. So the effect of the commercial trait is nearly non-existing. (And if my recollection of +1 for cities is correct, it doesn't even have much of an impact before Hospitals?!)
    You need to have a significant number of metropolises, before commercial really starts to make a difference. (And if you get to that point, the game is usually on it's way to victory even without you being commercial...) So my opinion is that other traits, which unfold their benefits right from turn 1 (or at least from very early on like the 50% discount on libraries you get as a scientific civ), are much more useful in most circumstances.
     
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