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Which of the ORIGINAL civilizations deserve a UA/UU/UB change the most?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The Observer, Apr 10, 2013.

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Which of the ORIGINAL civilizations deserve a UA/UU/UB change the most? (*Choose 3*)

Poll closed Jul 10, 2013.
  1. America

    135 vote(s)
    34.0%
  2. Arabia

    81 vote(s)
    20.4%
  3. Aztec

    17 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. China

    22 vote(s)
    5.5%
  5. Egypt

    10 vote(s)
    2.5%
  6. England

    25 vote(s)
    6.3%
  7. France

    38 vote(s)
    9.6%
  8. Germany

    172 vote(s)
    43.3%
  9. Greece

    32 vote(s)
    8.1%
  10. India

    244 vote(s)
    61.5%
  11. Iriquois

    16 vote(s)
    4.0%
  12. Japan

    55 vote(s)
    13.9%
  13. Ottomans

    69 vote(s)
    17.4%
  14. Persia

    10 vote(s)
    2.5%
  15. Rome

    14 vote(s)
    3.5%
  16. Russia

    22 vote(s)
    5.5%
  17. Siam

    12 vote(s)
    3.0%
  18. Songhai

    42 vote(s)
    10.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ottobot

    ottobot Chieftain

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    i voted for india (the penalty) and i would have voted for the dutch if they were in the poll. i mean, the name is almost certanly getting changes what with the new east india company nat. wonder, and the fact that their UA is basically a bazaar makes me think that that should change too.
     
  2. ekat2468

    ekat2468 Warlord

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    America: The UA is fine, but feel like America should have a more Economic or Industrial UA (After all, America is too this day, the largest economy in the world, and anyone who's read about America and WWII knows how powerful their industry was)

    India: I agree with this point "India is home of three of the world's great religions" and has no faith bonus. What? It also completes breaks the local happiness system, because +1 :c5happy: can cover 2 population instead of 1, which completely undermines the whole system of local happiness. The Mughal fort also needs some serious change.

    Songhai: Mainly the Mande Cav's. I think that they are too similiar to a conquistador, except a conquistador is better. The only thing that the Mande cav has going for it that the Conquistador doesn't also have is the slightly reduced production cost, but it is too minimal a bonus to be useful.
     
  3. ekat2468

    ekat2468 Warlord

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    Except that it is a bazaar that is active on turn 0. You also don't need to construct anything to get their bonus.
     
  4. ekat2468

    ekat2468 Warlord

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    Michigan, USA
    and people keep ranting about the Indian UA giving a penalty, but that is the balance point. Imagine if the UA didn't have the penalty. We would then called overpowered.

    I actually kind of like the German UA. Not the barbarian part really, but I love the -25% to land unit maintenance. I just finished a game where I had 20 lancers and 10 artillery, an army so big that I was assaulting two civilization at the same time, and I would've been indebt for an extremely long time if it hadn't been for the UA. The barbarian part of the UA really helped me to conquer my first capital, as well as a city-state that was in the way.
     
  5. seancolorado

    seancolorado Deity

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    Remember though, the Mandekalu Cavalry cannot be judged as a UU alone, as the UA aspects of Songhai synergize fairly decent:

    Mandekalu Cavalry
    + Receive triple gold from cities + encampents (from UA)
    + Extra embarkation strength + can see further than regular embarked (UA)
    + No penalty attacking from a sea or river (UA)
    + No penalty attacking cities
    + 8% discount production cost

    Conquistador
    + Extra embarkation strength
    + Extra sight (+2)
    + Can found cities on other continents
    + No penalty attacking cities
    - 13% additional production cost

    It's understandable that people compare them a lot, but their gameplay approach is different enough where I don't think it needs to change.

    But I know there are enough people who have expressed concerns with Songhai that it wouldn't surprise me if the devs saw the same problems.
     
  6. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    1,950
    Other than the Amphibious promotion (which is pretty freaking good, gotta admit) there's nothing really special about the Songhai. Beefing up the Mandy Cav would help with that.
     
  7. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
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    914
    The problem with the Indian UA is that it's basically been all over the place with the various patches since launch, and it's basically never really did what was intended. The funniest I think was the Indian "build one city, conquer the rest + courthouses". For a time (before they upped the unhappiness from 2 to 3) it could also be used in an ICS ish capacity because the population break point was so low. Point is... It didn't play like you think it should.

    Right now if you build tall (with another civ), you can keep up reasonably easily with your cities growth, so that at almost no point you are happiness restricted. You'll be a small touch happier if you do the exact same thing on very low city count with India, but you don't really get "bigger" cities unless you don't know how to manage happiness and growth.

    The intent I believe with India is that you have fewer, very high pop cities. They need to work a UA that actually does that, or just change it completely to something else that represents another facet of India.


    The only other one I'd kinda like some tweaks is Japan, but I think Japan's problem lies in how sword starts are a really big gamble in the current game.
     
  8. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
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    323
    Japan has no economic bonus.
    only a slight war bonus when there units are damaged. -3% damage per 10% less HP for normal civs. so a 1 hp unit of another civ would do -33% Damage.
    Now japan allways does full damage.
    It is still a huge nerf since Vanilla when it was -45% damage at 1 HP.
    Also the Samurai is barely better then regular crossbowmen.(Crossbowmen has inzane melee defence. 13. it is much better then composite bowmen compared to contemporary units.

    Indias bonus needs to change. give them a huge Growth bonus and India will naturally favor bigger cities. and build fewer cities since it is easier to get happiness early on for tall civs. (ok 33% to 50% will probably be enough since it starts at turn 1)

    also something needs to be done about longbowmen, kesiks and Camel Archers.
    Those units are broken, my easy fix for them would be to boost mounted unit speed.
    And to lower there melee defence down to 11.

    Ps not civ specific but, frigates need a lower melee defence. you can give them more ranged strength instead. currently they own all other units in there era and it is quite boring from a tactical standpoint.
     
  9. radster_X

    radster_X Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
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    65
    America
    In my opinion the 50% discount on tiles is actually pretty good, as it allows cheap expansion, but the AI should be encouraged to use this more.

    The whole +1 sight thing could be improved upon. I think it should have something else to aid exploration. Maybe an advantage when crossing rivers, like no movement points lost. Also with BNW coming out maybe something that aids finding antiquity sites?

    India
    India excels in creating large cities, but it's the only civ with a negative attribute in their UA. Needs improvement. Maybe something like this.

    River Culture
    India gets +1 food from all tiles on rivers and every 3 surplus food in the capital creates +1 faith and +1 culture.

    Those bonuses could be played around with though.

    Maya

    Their whole civilization was added purely because of the whole 2012 doomsday prophecy. The UA is pretty unique though, but this needs to be backed up by a stronger UU and UB.

    A sciene oriented ability could be added to the UA though, or maybe the UU earns science with every kill.

    I'll update this a bit later with some more.
     
  10. TimeWeaver

    TimeWeaver Warlord

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    May 31, 2011
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    Location:
    Chronos
    I really hope Firaxis will change at least the three civs clearly in the lead in this poll. I voted for them as well. India has so much potential, and no it's a dud civ with religion on top. I have like played America once, and that's all because that boring tile-buying UA. Lastly, Germany, since I think barbarian farming is a bit silly for starters. Also, panzers come far too late. I'd much rather have some production UA, for instance, and a war ability to "give it all" that not only fit the atrocities of WW2, but also WW1 and the Teutoburger battle, for instance.
     
  11. Moroten

    Moroten Chieftain

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    Build a wide and tall empire as India and complain later. They have no happiness issues later on in the game, the civ is a monster late-game.

    Ottomans only have the Janissary that is good, rest is weak. Germany i agree with, they are a joke.

    Songhai are amazing, one of my go-to civs. Get first point in honor-farm barbs-get loads of gold-buy stuff. The economic boost so early is amazing, especially in BNW where gold in the early game will be much harder to get.
     
  12. IkM

    IkM King

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    Yes, I agree. Songhai is quite good in the early era. currently playing as Songhai and triple gold from barbarian camps just fantastic. but they have to polish Mandekalu Cavalry in BNW. Conquistador far better than them.
     
  13. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    While America is not what I would describe best, its a very good civ overall. Their sight bonus though it can be replicated, its a wasted promotion if you do so on every single soldier delaying logistics. On the other hand by getting it for free, it means that you can use units to spot for artillery units all the more easier. For me sight has always been at a premium and I was overly rejoiced when I discovered that America and Isabella (conquistadors) can use their cavalry as effective spotters.

    Arabia will most likely change due to the trade system changing that is a guarantee.
    India, though a lot of people complain they it is far from worthless. It just too difficult to play them if you don't know the ropes. But I agree that most likely it will be tweaked.



    With the new policy rumored for autocracy (the one that will enable the units to suicide for damage), I think most will consider bushido to be one of the best tier abilities. As it should be: Kamikaze!

    EDIT: I forgot to cast my 2cents for India UB. I am surprised nobody considered what happens to this building when Nuchnestein and flight are on...

    Having played with the Maya extensively the last two weeks, I have to say that with the proper science path and GP generation buildings, they can be a force to be reckoned with.
     
  14. Moroten

    Moroten Chieftain

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    Maya are seriously strong. Their UA is great but it is mainly their UB that is insane. Starting with an acher is also really good, get a lucky hut and you got a composite bowman.
     
  15. seancolorado

    seancolorado Deity

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    I think America is fine
     
  16. codepoet

    codepoet Commander of Cubicle 42

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    There are enough changes to the underlying mechanics for BNW, that I think the majority of civs need an adjustment... not just three.
    IMO the ones most in need of a change though are: America, Germany and Ottomans.
     
  17. Velex

    Velex Chieftain

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    If Indians' weren't such generally happy people, they might find it offensive to be stereotyped as happy people.

    Gameplaywise, that might be fine, but it's a bit underwhelming in terms of being interesting, don't you think?
     
  18. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    Civilizations that needs to change due to overall suckage:

    India => No further explanation needed
    Celts => Useless UA & UU past getting the first pantheon / early religion
    Germany => Overlaps with the Zulu, is bland, ahistorical, seriously, it just sucks on many different levels
    Ottomans => quite terribly designed, and provides of little historical flavour too. Also, this is an extremely weak civ overall, Janissary or not

    Civilizations that needs to change due to the introduction of new mechanics (trade routes, mainly):

    Netherlands => Biggest trading empire until the arrival of the British Empire circa s.XVIII
    Arabia => Their UA is even called "trade caravans". High possibilities of crazy synergy with their UB (remember that your International Trade Routes get bonuses tied to local luxury resources)
    Carthage => The quinquaessential ancient naval trading empire
    Russia => A UA related with ideological tennets would be in order, me thinks

    Civilizations that needs to change due to their overwhelming blandness:

    America => Booooooooooooriningggg. Picking the USA changes almost nothing of your playstyle
    China => One of the most ahistorical and badly represented UA, not to mention that it is incredibly bland
    Japan => Yet another case of Civ's V warmonger-itis regarding civ design

    There's much, much room for improvement.
     
  19. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs Emperor

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    I wouldn't say the maya were added strictly for their predictions. They were in previous incarnations of civ and have some serious history that we might know more about if the Spanish didn't burn all of their libraries. UA is obviously doomsday inspired though
     
  20. radster_X

    radster_X Chieftain

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    I agree that the Maya have a good UB but in game, any game when I'm with the Maya, they stay pretty weak with 2 or 3 cities and then just get wiped out in the late game. Perhaps the characteristics of Pacal or the AI needs a bit of work.

    The Maya atlatist is ok because you unlock it earlier, but I think it needs an interesting bonus, like the Incan slinger can retreat, and the Aztec jaguar earns culture. Unlocking it automatically is a bonus, but in most games, this doesn't add up to much and other players will already have composite bowmen and or a bigger army.

    Anyway I think a mostly overlooked civ that needs improvement is Greece. With BNW coming out, Greece needs some better UU's/ and possibly a stronger UA to compete with civilizations like Siam and Austria for Diplomatic victory. Perhaps they can get an extra delegate from city states or something?

    The Celts are another contender for improvement. To me the Celts are less about faith from forests, and more about resisting a civilization with a technological advantage to the Celts. The current UA could be kept but the UU could do with improvement. An interesting, (and possibly slightly OP idea) would be to make the UU have a promotion that gives it extra strength when fighting swordsman/spearman, after a civilization has researched the necessary technology. While quite complicated this would be more historically accurate, as the Pictish warriors were fighting the Legions of Rome.
     

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