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Which of the ORIGINAL civilizations deserve a UA/UU/UB change the most?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The Observer, Apr 10, 2013.

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Which of the ORIGINAL civilizations deserve a UA/UU/UB change the most? (*Choose 3*)

Poll closed Jul 10, 2013.
  1. America

    135 vote(s)
    34.0%
  2. Arabia

    81 vote(s)
    20.4%
  3. Aztec

    17 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. China

    22 vote(s)
    5.5%
  5. Egypt

    10 vote(s)
    2.5%
  6. England

    25 vote(s)
    6.3%
  7. France

    38 vote(s)
    9.6%
  8. Germany

    172 vote(s)
    43.3%
  9. Greece

    32 vote(s)
    8.1%
  10. India

    244 vote(s)
    61.5%
  11. Iriquois

    16 vote(s)
    4.0%
  12. Japan

    55 vote(s)
    13.9%
  13. Ottomans

    69 vote(s)
    17.4%
  14. Persia

    10 vote(s)
    2.5%
  15. Rome

    14 vote(s)
    3.5%
  16. Russia

    22 vote(s)
    5.5%
  17. Siam

    12 vote(s)
    3.0%
  18. Songhai

    42 vote(s)
    10.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. seancolorado

    seancolorado Deity

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    Their UB alone is strong enough to warrant zero changes.

    AI characteristics should not have a bearing on whether a civ should change or not

    Atlatlist is great precisely because you can use it immediately. It doesn't need an interesting bonus - the cheaper cost is the interesting bonus already. If your worry is about composite bowman, you have an equal chance to get there as fast as the AI or human does

    Maya just doesn't need to change. They are a strong, versatile civ. The only way I could see them changing is if the devs find out that their UA is significantly altered due to the new mechanics (great people) and thus need to implement minor tweaks here and there
     
  2. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    The Maya are without doubt the LEAST needing of a boost and if anything they need to be knocked down a peg or two. The AI doesn't seem to work well playing the Maya, presumably as you say because the characteristics don't have much synchronisity with the civ.

    However, every single unique aspect of the Maya is incredible. The UB adds more faith than a shrine, a very early building and on top of that adds early science. That means a certain religion and significant bonuses from going wide at a start. Those significant bonuses help you get to theology, where you get a great person every dozen or so turns, which especially early game is just so powerful and so flexible.

    The one downside is that playing them effectively as a wide civ means your neighbours don't like you, and teching to theology in a rush for those great people mean you don't often have time to research archery. Well hey, how about an archer that doesn't require archery? That you can build straight away? The archer line is without doubt the most effective in early to mid game, particularly against the AI and the Maya get theirs before anyone else. That means you can protect your cities that much easier and quicker, you can secure your gains. On top of that its then cheaper so you can get more of them, or as many as you need with more production to spend on your economy.


    The Maya's uniques work together better than any other civ i know, and in a manner that is very flexible. They are unquestionably powerful. Especially since they often start near salt, at least i have found that. I would give it a jungle start bias to at least give it a little slap in the face for the early game.
     
  3. cpm4001

    cpm4001 Goggleman

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    Arabia and Germany certainly could use some updates after BNW, as their UAs are pretty much "one-upped" by those of Morocco and the Zulu. Japan could probably also use an update; I think the 'Bushido' ability was a lot more useful when units only had 10 hitpoints.
    Otherwise, I think India, America, and probably Siam could use some balance tweaks. China should probably be made a little less warlike and a bit more economic/scientific, too.
     
  4. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    And the Maya already got a boost in BNW now that the Piety tree is available from the start of the game. Half-price UB? Yes, please!
     
  5. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    My 3: America, France and Japan.
    They all receive bonuses for which you don't need to do anything, I always find that boring from a gameplay point of view.

    I hope India will stay the way it is. India plays very differently. No other civ starts with a handicap compareable to theirs, but then, once you're past their tricky opening, they are a formidable civ.
     
  6. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    Yeah, America is really boring to play. Buying tiles and seeing further is hardly relevant half way through the game (especially after certain Wonders and promotions). Minutemen and B-12 are mediocre at best.

    Germany is fun to play but is better suited for a cultural UA in a BNW. Militaristic UA is still good as well, just change the Germanic Tribes aspect.

    India is the biggest one for me. It was the home of so many religions, is one of the longest lived civilizations of all time, and has such a rich history. It should have some sort of Faith or Cultural bonus. Population growth should have nothing to do with it.
     
  7. Montezumas Hat

    Montezumas Hat Chieftain

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    I'm surprised at how many people think America is useless. The extra sight is amazing, and the tile buying is extremely useful for setting up mid and late game cities with all their useful tiles. If anything, I'd like to see them get something to replace the minuteman. All it does is ignores terrain costs, which is something you can get with every single Incan unit. Given the new mechanics, I'd think a building that boosts tourism or GP generation seems fitting.

    As far as any civs needing changes, I don't have much else to say that hasn't already been said. Germany could use a change, and personally, as I mentioned in a wall of text in a different thread, a flat discount on all maintenance costs would be fantastic and emphasizes Germany's historic strengths better than it does now.

    Besides that? India, obviously, though my problem is less about the negative than it is about the lack of faith. Yeah, you get extra unhappiness for cities, but so much more unhappiness would be generated by population anyway, that imo it makes it worth it. At least, in Vanilla. Given the changes (both in GK and BNW), they could probably get an update.
     
  8. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    Were any Vanilla civs given updates in GK?
     
  9. Heart Break Kid

    Heart Break Kid Warlord

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    Off the top of my head the Ottoman Empire and England were changed.
     
  10. codepoet

    codepoet Commander of Cubicle 42

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    Direct updates: Relatively minor ones if I recall correctly. For example England was given the extra spy perk to its UA. I think Ottomans were revamped a little too?
     
  11. codepoet

    codepoet Commander of Cubicle 42

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    Oh and something about China was adjusted too - great generals were more frequent or something? I forget
     
  12. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Also India, Spain, Japan, Songhai, Siam and possibly others. I've given several times wrong advice here on the forums, unaware of the updates...
     
  13. Thyme1994

    Thyme1994 Chieftain

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    I don't know if anybody thought of this before, but if you think about it, America is possibly the single most suited civ for a tourism based UA. Most people are pretty ignorant about this part, but most of our modern day lives are shaped and greatly influenced by american culture.
    Movies, TV shows, music, clothes, advertisements, toys, even food, etc. there's just so many aspects that are influenced by it. (Atleast in the western hemisphere, but also elsewhere to a lesser extent)

    Plus, the USA are the most visited country IN THE WORLD !
    So tourism should definately be a part of their UA, especially when there aren't really that many civ that could be tourism centered.
     
  14. I_qua_I

    I_qua_I Prince

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    A lot of us have thought of that before. :D There are a few good debates about America's status as the preeminent modern cultural power strewn across these BNW threads. Also, America's cultural influence definitely extends outside of the western hemisphere. I'm American though have previously lived outside the U.S. in a non-western part of the world for a couple years. I'm not going to get into the specifics of my experience but I was pretty astounded by how many familiar, distinctly "American" items I found there and the open praise and mimicry of American ideals (particularly by the youth.) I'm pretty certain France is the most visited country in the world though...
     
  15. HemlockMartinis

    HemlockMartinis Chieftain

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    Come to think of it, I haven't seen India or America in any of the previews for BNW. Would it be too much of a speculative leap to infer anything about possible existing civ revamps from the absence of some civs in the previews or demo builds? Is there a list somewhere of which existing civs have been shown and which haven't?
     
  16. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

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    How people fail to understand that India's UA has no drawback fails me... When you found a city that reaches a population of 8 (and you generally want this playing india, no matter which number that city is in the founding order) the penality is effectively canceled. From that point on you ONLY benefit. And as I said, as you want big cities in general, this is no drawback... You can even have 6 Cities of minimum 20 people, and still benefit GREATLY. All you can not do is found 20 cities of 4... but that's practically no penality.

    Saying that, the civ that really needs an upgrade is Germany... with the Landsknecht being the only good part of it.
     
  17. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    I agree with America being due for an overhaul with BNW's new features. It is one of the most influential Civs for all new additions: tourism (second most visited only to France, but is the biggest earner in tourism), international trade (most trade of goods in the world), World Council (was a founding member of both the League of Nations and the UN.), cultural powerhouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanization), and was the key player (along with the U.K. and France) for Freedom in the Ideological clash.

    And of course Archeology: Indiana Jones.

    I mean, if we're stuck with the same Manifest Destiny UA and no improvements I will be seriously disappointed.
     
  18. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Sid Meier was born across the river from United States (more specifically, the St. Clair River). Yet, he went there to create this very game series.
     
  19. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    The problem with India is that there's no real benefit to having a bunch of happiness. For all intents and purposes, having 1 happiness is the same as 100. The only difference is how quickly you get Golden Ages, and ironically you want to keep your happiness down for that exact reason so that your Golden Ages come when you will benefit most from them.

    Happiness is only worth thinking about when it's below 0, which is something that happens a lot for India. The only real happiness clench for tall civs is at the beginning of the game when they're trying to settle cities, which India is obviously much, much worse at than any other civ.
     
  20. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    I voted Songhai, Japan, India, and Germany as most needing of tweaks.

    Songhai just isn't as flavorful as it once was despite GK tweaks. The UB provides little bonus, the Mandelaku cavalry which was nice Pre-GK is useless now and the UA remains relatively weak. Japan's UA got significantly weaker with GK and its units are relatively bland. India makes settling in the early game a disaster oftentimes with little real "growth" benefits that other tall civs actually have. A simple fix for India would be to add a 10% food growth bonus and every population point above say, 5 population provides +1 faith
     

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