Which tech to start with?

[Metehan]

Hi.am a newbie.im playing C3C...
i can play good on second level(not chieftain) but the other level is hard for me bc the AI builds more settlers than me .i play huge map and random opponents.Firstly i build all my settlers before building granary or temple.i play with Ottomans...
i do not know what to do at the beginning.should i begin with searching pottery or something else?
Thanks for advices...

 

[thetrooper]

1. Welcome to CFC Metehan!

2. You should build a granary before you start building settlers, otherwise it's useless.

3. Do you want to see where the strategic resources are? Go for The Wheel and Iron Working. Do you want to get a free tech from Philosophy? Go: Alphabet-Writing-Code of Laws-Philosophy-Free Tech as you choose. (You have to be the first to discover Philosophy to get the free tech though). Hard to tell really, warmongers go for the strategic resources and the government tech Monarchy. Others choose the free tech path to gain monoploy on many techs that the AIs neglect.

Try searching the War Academy here to pick up some tips or ask specific questions in the Quick Answers thread.

 

[vmxa]

A huge map will distort the game and take a great deal of time to play to the end.

I would suggest you use a standard size map with at least 6 civs and preferably the full 8. Then you will at least see the game in its normal settings.

Granaries are useful, not required. It is difficult to say what tech to start in general as there are so many ways to play.

If this is Warlord, I would suggest you see what is around your start before making a choice.

If you see a food bonus near you and water, then getting Pottery and making a granary is going to help you. Do not get carried away and make granaries all over the place though.

The first 4 towns is plenty, with maybe an expection for a super site. Skip granaries in any of the early towns that do not have water next to them, river or lake.

If the AI is making settlers faster than you at Warlord, you are not doing a good job of building your empire. Well presuming you are not in some crap starting location.

The main cause of it is likely a lack of workers. You want enough workers to be able to have all tiles that are being worked by a citizen improved. This means a road and a mine or irrigation.

If you see that is not the case make more workers. At least 1.5 per town is a good rule of thumb.

Irrigate any food bonus, yes there are times not to, irrigate brown tiles. Mine all grass tiles that do not have a food bonus. Do not work mountians, till other tiles are done and same for hills. An exception is a road for connections or resources/lux.

Try to get towns up to size 3 before doing a settler. Try to plan settlers so that you do not drop down to size 1 as this takes so long to recover.

Often you can set a town up to size 5/6 and pump out settlers every 5 turns with basically no loss of pop.

 

[Metehan]

A huge map will distort the game and take a great deal of time to play to the end.

I would suggest you use a standard size map with at least 6 civs and preferably the full 8. Then you will at least see the game in its normal settings.

ok

Granaries are useful, not required. It is difficult to say what tech to start in general as there are so many ways to play.

i can understand what you say.i mean there is no turn loses when starting with any technology.i always start with the tech which takes the less turns.is that a good way to play?

If this is Warlord, I would suggest you see what is around your start before making a choice.

i play with regent.

If you see a food bonus near you and water, then getting Pottery and making a granary is going to help you. Do not get carried away and make granaries all over the place though. .

that is really gonna help me.

If the AI is making settlers faster than you at Warlord, you are not doing a good job of building your empire. Well presuming you are not in some crap starting location

The main cause of it is likely a lack of workers. You want enough workers to be able to have all tiles that are being worked by a citizen improved. This means a road and a mine or irrigation.

If you see that is not the case make more workers. At least 1.5 per town is a good rule of thumb.

Irrigate any food bonus, yes there are times not to, irrigate brown tiles. Mine all grass tiles that do not have a food bonus. Do not work mountians, till other tiles are done and same for hills. An exception is a road for connections or resources/lux..

a food bonus.At first i am always mining the food bonus.After republic i turn it to irrigating.i dont work on mountains or hills till i get the republic.
at my first cities i try to make 3 squares work and after that i start to make roads between cities.


Thank you ...

1. Welcome to CFC Metehan!

Thank you so much.

2. You should build a granary before you start building settlers, otherwise it's useless.

Well.i went for pottery at first.it takes 12 turns.And my city grows in 10 turns.Anyways when the other guys had 3 cities i was making my first settler.On standart map i cant find any free lands to build a city in.i mostly have done 7 and the other civilizations were putting cities to my nearest border.i think you said this for huge map or does it work for standart map too?

3. Do you want to see where the strategic resources are? Go for The Wheel and Iron Working. Do you want to get a free tech from Philosophy? Go: Alphabet-Writing-Code of Laws-Philosophy-Free Tech as you choose. (You have to be the first to discover Philosophy to get the free tech though). Hard to tell really, warmongers go for the strategic resources and the government tech Monarchy. Others choose the free tech path to gain monoploy on many techs that the AIs neglect.

Try searching the War Academy here to pick up some tips or ask specific questions in the Quick Answers thread.

Well im not a warmonger.i give more importance to improve happiness of the people and building city improvements.as i remember.i go first with pottery-ceremonial burial-warrior code exc ...
Thanks for help.

 

[Whomp]

Well im not a warmonger.i give more importance to improve happiness of the people and building city improvements.as i remember.i go first with pottery-ceremonial burial-warrior code exc ...
Thanks for help.

Though you may not be a warmonger...warmongers like happiness too...the difference is instead of permanent and costly structures (temples) through luxury acquistion.

This is a process I use for trading and deciding whether it's a good trade.
I learned this in a zero science Monarch succession game from Bede.
The decision making process:

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

So ask yourself on the 3 techs you mentioned do you need it?
Pottery? I'd say yes. Growth is power. Granaries/settlers are growth.
WC? Not really. For what, archers? Not really necessary in the early game.
CB? Nope. If you're building temples that early in the game then you don't have enough workers or settlers. No city should have major happiness issues early game and if they do then you don't have enough workers or settlers being made.

With the level you're playing at and the number of civs you're playing with trades should be very easy to make. I'd consider the republic slingshot myself. Alpha(curraghs are the best research money spent through more contacts), writing, CoL and philo with Republic as your free tech. Getting out of a despot is very important to get the economic boost.

 

[MAS]

I think a lot of newby builders misunderstand warmongers


In warlord diff (and chieftian too) , the AI players are given a pennalty to production and growth. If you build your first settler when the AI has 3 city's then ither your expansion strategy is seriously flawed, or you where given an extreemly unlucky start. (in the middle of the jungle or something)

What I usually do is settle on the spot, or move one tile (but not more than 1) and then build 3 10-shield units (usually 3 warriors) The first 2 will explore right away, the 3th stays a bit closer to the city. Then I will start on a settler.

Once that settler is build my worker is done improving about 3-4 tiles near my captal, and will start on improving 3 tiles near my 2th city.

The settler removed 2 pop so the city is likely back to size 1 again, I will then build ither my granary in the capital or just build 3-4 more warriors. And then the next settler.

My second city will build a warrior while it is growing, and then a worker. The worker will remove 1 pop from that city so I will build an other warrior again while it is growing again, till I can afford to build a settler from that city too. (or it builds a granary aswell instead of warriors)

Once the first ring of city's is build, the city's further away from the capital have some more red shields, so it can only do 1 shield per turn while size one. Combined with 2 surplus food per turn it can build a worker every ten turns.

As you can see, I will build settlers and workers at an increadible rate, becouse settlers and workers cost pop points, my city's will rarely grow above size 3 and almost never above size 4. When the expansion fase is over, I have a huge army of workers that will quickly road and improve all the land. While my city's are building markets and libraries, they grow (becouse no more pop is removed) and quickly become ver powerfull. This will result in lots of gold (from the roads) so I can create happyness with the lux slider.
After that, you can decide to build temples in some city's if that happens to be cheaper than the lux slider. A warmonger would instead conquer a lux resource.

If you have enough lux resources about, you can do without temples or cathedral's at all.

Only if you plan to do a culture victory I would suggest building your temples earlier (at the cost of building warrior in between settlers)

If you go for the space race you should build fast offensive units instead of temples and cathedrals. The best way to have peace is to prepare for war. You don't have to use the units, you only have to have them availeble.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I am definitely a builder, but I have pretty much never played a game of civilization through *without* war - I had a 20K game as babylon where I didn't want to start any wars - be totally peaceful - but I didn't have iron and I didn't have coal and no one would trade them to me, so I had to go take it.

My first Emperor win was as England - the iroquois landed an archer next to a city and declared war once - I ran a war agaisnt them to get some luxes and trigger a GA with the Man O War - and I triggered a war just before the UN vote so everyone would vote for me - but it was a peaceful game.

The way the game is set up, it is very difficult to make it through without war at some point.

Reason you irrigate food bonuses is that it is the only way to grow food in despotism. Irrigating non-bonus land doesnt' help in despotism...

Under despotism, irrigate bonuses, irrigate brown, mine green, irrigate white, but dont' go nuts (unless you are agri, of course) and aovid hills/mountains... unless there is gold or iron there. Mined iron will give 3 shields in despotism, which is, I believe, the only way to get 3 shields from a tile under despotism.

Given that an extra shield can be the difference between an archer in 4 turns rather than 5, it's well worth it.

 

[machia]

I ususally play a random civ, and when I get a free scout (for the expansionist trait) I always research the cheapest tech, and hope to get the others from goody huts...

You can always sell them around if they're not so useful.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I usually research something like warrior code, until I get the wheel, then I research horseback riding - at least until writing, then I research philo, so that doesnt' get popped.

If I'm lucky, I can get most of the techs - course, trading around is useful, too, so you get more upper level techs.

but I almost always select my civ and map - I may select random opponents, but since I have no wish to play a game with egypt on a 4 B year old, wet warm map covered with mountains and jungles, or byzantium on a pangea map with 40% water...

 

[machia]

But that's the real fun, the way I see it...

 

[The 777 Hoax]

If I don't get it in the beginning, I like to get Alphabet first.

If my trait gives me Alphabet, I usually research Bronze Working.

But if you like granaries and city growth, then you're going to want Pottery definitely.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

oh sure - I wasn't judging, just giving how I play.

Nothing quite as frustrating as being expansionist on a 80% water arch map - especially if it's a small island.

That's one thing I like about this game - you can play it in so many different ways...

 

[ac196nataku]

On lower difficulties where the Philosophy slingshot (the free tech) is easily achievable, I find it to be a broken. Unfortunantely, I think I'm growing dependant on it and receiving Republic for free. One game, I think on a World Map with tons of huts, the Zulu or some crap heads like that got Philosophy first. I was so angry and distraught I almost quit. Almost.

I should also mention that I'm not really aggressive until the late AA, mid MA. That's when the AI needs to look out... Haha.

 

[Desertsnow]

I rarely play aggressively; most of my games are played out without having declared war. If I do, it's usually in the late ancient age or or late medieval to earlyish industrial era. There have been a few exceptions though, like when I get crowded into the corner of a continent. Sometimes even a pacifist has to fight.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Back to the original question. I'd say that starting tech and research route are primarily deterimined by difficulty level. At the lower levels it's a matter of personal preference and desired victory condition. You'll be researching much faster than the AI, so you can pick and choose the techs that fit your goal. Go for Pottery early and get granaries up and running for early growth. Go for Alphabet and get a headstart on the Philosophy tree to pick up a free tech, or to get libraries up first, or build curraughs and meet all the other civs before everyone else. (BTW, the reason to research in the following order -- Alphabet --> Writing --> Code of Laws --> Philosophy -- is to get Philosophy first and get the free tech. You then pick Republic (which is a very expensive tech to research, and the reason you research CoL before Philosophy) and you'll have two monopoly techs to trade and get just about every other Ancient Age tech, and you can also switch to Republic early and get out from under the Despotism penalty.) You can research whatever you want depending on what you want to do. Review the techs to see what you get out of them. The Wheel and Iron Working are quite valuable because they reveal resources and enable valuable military units. Map Making is good to advance your travels overseas. Etc.

At higher levels, the decisions you make about your starting techs and research path are much more crucial. The AI will research faster than you will and will trade their techs around for nearly nothing, while refusing to trade with you at all or charging ridiculous amounts for the techs you have. At DemiGod and above you'll be struggling to keep up with AI research for a long time. Being able to trade techs is the only way to keep up. So you have to keep the following considerations in mind.

Don't research what the AI is likely to research. They'll get there before you will, and you'll have nothing to trade. That's why I never research Iron Working, as much as it's a great tech to have. Even if you start with Bronze Working, it's an expensive tech and you'll spend 40 research turns to end up with something that everyone else already has.

The AI likes to research all the techs horizontaly, e.g. they'll focus on getting all the first level techs before they research one of the second level techs. Thus if you start with Ceremonial Burial you have a good chance to get Mysticism first and be able to trade it.

The AI tends to avoid researching certain techs, and it's often but not always the optional techs. For example, they usually ignore Literature completely, even after getting into the Middle Ages. You can often get Literature first and hold onto it as a monopoly for a long time, getting a headstart on building the Great Library even at Sid level.

The AI also tends to value techs very differently. Obviously they'll pay more for a tech if it's currently a monopoly and the price will go down the more that other civs have it. But they also like government techs and resource techs (e.g. Monarchy or Iron Working), and will pay more for them. Other techs they couldn't care less about. (I've never gotten much for Literature, even as a monopoly.) So obviously it helps to follow a research path that emphasizes techs that have a high trade value.

Your starting techs will also profoundly affect your research goals. I prefer civs that have starting techs that allow immediate second level research, especially if that second level tech is highly useful. My favorite example is France. Joan d'Arc starts with Masonry and Alphabet, and so can immediately research Mathmatics, something that the AI takes a while to get around to. You can have a monopoly and if you have ivory you can have a huge head-start on building the Statue of Zeus, a devestatingly powerful wonder to have. Even without ivory, you'll be able to build catapults, a big help for your military adventures.

Anyway, there are plenty of other connections. In fact, I've been thinking about writing a war academy article on the strategic considerations of starting techs and tech research. Could be fun.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - I have been played a deity game where I can routinely get the republic slingshot - but I am playing with no civs that start with alphabet.

You *can* research with the AI, as long as you trade, trade, trade - in the right circumstances, I can be *ahead* of most of the AI's, at deity, on one branch - which means we are in tech parity. Tech pace in a game like that is brutally fast - I have gotten into the MA as a republic in 1350 BC or so, but it slows down after that - AI wars tend to make some civs smaller and less good at tech - and, of course, they all tend to research invention, then gunpowder together, so that's a lot of duplicated effort on their part...

 

[Whomp]

There's another option at deity level that can be considered if you don't start with alpha but have pottery.

The zero science/farmers gambit. Here you buy alpha once you meet the other civs. This gives you the capability to buy the tech at a discount and in a timeframe that's potentially shorter or the same as if you researched it on your own. Then you can deficit research at max to writing and philo while you're cranking out workers and settlers.

 

[GoodGame]

Like most people, granary before settlers. And rushbuild the granary by chopping forests (but not jungle---too much time).

Pay a lot of attention to what type of terrain and bonus resources you are getting. Cows and wheat are worth looking around for, for a couple of turns, unless you want to build a wonder with only 2-3 cities.

Hi.am a newbie.im playing C3C...
i can play good on second level(not chieftain) but the other level is hard for me bc the AI builds more settlers than me .i play huge map and random opponents.Firstly i build all my settlers before building granary or temple.i play with Ottomans...
i do not know what to do at the beginning.should i begin with searching pottery or something else?
Thanks for advices...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Yeah - granaries are the way to speed up growth. But not for every city - that's an expense that isn't needed.

They are an investment, and may put you behind the AI for awhile, at least on higher levels - on regent, the AI will likely get it's 2nd and 3rd city out before you if you build a granary - but it will take the AI 10 turns to get the next cities out, while you will be able to create one every 4-6 turns.

Go to the war academy and read the articles on opening plays by cracker - they are amazing - well written, lots of examples. They talk about what tiles to improve first... reading them will improve your start tremendously.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Go for Alphabet and get a headstart on the Philosophy tree to pick up a free tech, or to get libraries up first, or build curraughs and meet all the other civs before everyone else. (BTW, the reason to research in the following order -- Alphabet --> Writing --> Code of Laws --> Philosophy -- is to get Philosophy first and get the free tech. You then pick Republic

You get a free tech when you research Philosophy first?

I read something somewhere, about enacting republic before a certain year. It gave a lot of extra points or some other benefit.

I play standard edition, please notify if something does not apply to me.