Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Jawz II, Apr 5, 2004.
My Faves are the Gaelic Swordsman, Mounted warriors, Hoplite, Coassacks, Enkidu Warriors, Javalin thrower and Berskers, Haven't tried out all Civs yet though.
The 'Best' will always be disputed, since ppl play with varying difficuluty levels and for different reasons, points, winning and try to win so many different ways.
My Best Guess though would be the Gaelic Swordsman.
I can't pick one, that's for sure.
The early attacking units are great: Immortals, Gallic Swordsmen, Mounted Warriors.
I really like the Swiss Mercenary too. It seems overpowered since it's basically a half-price Musketman (minus an attack point, but who cares about that) and is the best for a whole age: Feudalism to Nationalism, and good until the age of Tanks.
The Sipahi is nice but it doesn't feel like a real difference-maker to me, and it's 25% more expensive than Cavalry.
I have tried the Vikings a couple of times but the Berserk is very expensive (70 shields against 40 for the Longbowman) and I haven't been able to exploit its advantages well.
UUs that I don't like include Chasqui Scout (but the Incas rule anyway), Cossack (hard to really use the Blitz capability all that much when you're attacking mostly Musketmen), Carrack and Bowman.
Immortals, Riders, and Ansar Warriors are the three best UU's
GS and Rider
Sipahi, Rider and Mounted warrior, in that order...
I've kinda overanalysed this and my conclusion was that the Hoplite was overall the best UU.
I've never myself nor seen the AI, do much with bombard units, naval units nor air units. so any UU of those are kinda out of the running.
In thinking that you'll try to build lots of these units since they are the best you should have available:
all un mounted ground units upgrade to Guerillas, which are usually the expendable units at that time. I'd rather not have dozens of Guerillas running around, when I could have Cavalary etc
Mounted units all upgrade to Calvary/cossacks/Sipahi. They are very Dominant for a long time and Sipahi was a close 2nd, but again once Tanks come around (in huge map games you'll usually research to this point eventually), again they're almost obsolete, espeically when MA come around. Sure many ppl will have finished the game by then, but if say 30% or so of players don't, then the obsoleteness of calavary units becomes significant. Ansar rider, chinese riders are in the top 5 still though.
Then it comes down to Defensive units, which will never be obsolete, they'll upgrade into the 2nd most powerful unit int he game, MI. so a choice from enkidu warrior, impi, hoplite, swiss mercanary and Muskateer.
Enkidu warrior, no resources + half cost = 2 points
Impi, extra movement + no resources = 2 points
Hoplite, extra defense + no resources + lets you ignore next upgrade = 3 points
Swiss mercanry, extra defense + ignore next upgrade = 2 points
Muskateer, Extra defense + bombard + partially lets you ignore next upgrade = 2.5 points
I may have missed them in my analysis, or underestimated something, but this was the basic logic I used.
Unfortunately, merely counting the number of things a unit has going for it isn't a good analysis of how useful it is. It's better if it only has one very big thing going for it than half a dozen trivialities. I'd also argue that having the UU upgrade to a useful unit isn't terribly advantageous, as so do normal units. However, having a useful unit upgrade to your UU is potentially deadly - think war with knights, think mass upgrade to Sipahi.
The true answer is that there isn't really a 'best' UU overall, though there may be for a particular playstyle or situation. The best UU would then be the one which is most useful for the greatest range of situations. As such, probably one of the fast defensive units - Ansar, Sipahi, et cetera, depending on when you're attacking. With the exception of the Chasquis scout, each UU is deadly in its niche. The Byzantines can dominate the seas until Magnetism, whereupon the English take over the seas and keep them. Even H'wacha can be lifesavers if you're waging an artillery-heavy war, though, and you probably should be. The exceptions are probably the F-15 and the Chasquis Scout, neither of which strike me as game-breakers.
You also forget that ancient units get minus points for the risk of triggering a despotic golden age, something which you're better off avoiding. The risk is greater for defensive UUs, meaning that you'd best remove one point from that Hoplite.
People talk about Despot GAs like they're the worst thing in the world, I disagree. If you plan ahead & time it right you can turn a despotism GA into the biggest flood of settlers you've ever seen. Often this is enough to take a commanding lead of the game, which the AI is hard pressed to catch up.
Despotism GA's aren't great, but they are deffinatly not bad if you know its coming & can use it to your advantage.
Wake up people!
There is no such thing as THE best UU. It depends on many factors as playstyle, oppononents and so.
But as a rule of thumb you can say that the lower the stats are the larger percentage the bonus is and therefore the value of the bonus. As with the Enkidu warrior, a jump from 1 to 2 is a gain on 100% while a Samurai that gains a bonus from 3 to 4 in defence is only 33% (and the lack of horse requirement as well)
Regarding playstyle, you may not like to have your GA too early as a result in using your UU, neither too late as with the Americans F-15 (which usually must rely on getting a wonder iniated GA)
Some people like attacking units best (Immortals, Mounted Warriors), others defensive units (Hoplites and Enkidu warriors)
_Personally_ regarding my playstyle (tiny pangea conquests)
I like most the Immortals - which are Awsome. The Mounted warriors are also great. I like these since they come early and give a nice % bonus as mentioned.
Immortals are just the same as medieval infantery (Persians cant build this) and you get them from the start, they endure until the appearance of Riflemen.
On the defensive side I find Enkidus and Hoplites best for massive pillage raids since your enemy will be in serious trouble agains them and they are cheap.
All UU's that go outside the straight road to Military tradition I don't care at all about since I should have won by then (or it may be too late anyway)
The chasqui scout is a special one. You can't build normal scouts and are forced to build these, but if playing on a huge map you may win back the cost by moving on mountains as much as possible and therefore indeed increase your scounting radius a lot without loosing speed.
the F-15 is by far the worst one, and Conquistadors - I still except for pillaging and stealing workers, haven't seen the good use of them (since they are som excpensive).
the "lower stat/cheaper unit/most numerous" sounds right,but then one could argue that that the jump from 1 to 2,which indeed is a gain of 100% still isnt enough of a bonus to really make a big diffrence,since spearmen with def = 2 and archers with att=2 are available from the get go
i dont know if u read my 1st post or not,but by best i meant the one unit that makes it easiest to beat the game
given with diffrent styles of play there has to be diffrent best choice for diffrent people,but still there has to be one single unit that is slightly better than others from a pure logical/mathematical point of view
still with diffrent terrain everytime and special skills on some UUs,for example enslaving mayans and ampnibious vikings its even harder to decide
see this as the whats yo favourtie/which is the best UU thread!
The best UU... This should be the favourite UU. Some UUs are better on certain maps, against certain civs, even. For example, if your UU is the impi, you won't do very well against say, Persia, with their slow attacking UU, but you would do better against the Iroquois, because of their retreating UU. The Jaguar Warrior would be useless on a huge map with two civs because it will be long obselete when (if) war starts. (And it would take forever for the jag to get to the other civ)
As to the question of which UU makes it easier to win the game, it would depend on your playing style. Sir Pleb would be able to use the Jaguar Warrior, while a purely peaceful builder would like the Hoplite better. It all depends on the player.
First Prize: Immortals- basically, a Medieval Infantry with Iron Working, cheaper too!
Second Prize: Hoplite- a pikeman with Bronze Working, and cheaper too!
Third Prize: Beserks- an early powerful marine, can you say, domination?
Legionary- Good, extra defense makes it good as Pikes, but Immortals still dominate
Siphai- Offense powerhouse, but on defensive it lacks the ability to survive, Immortals can kill them...
Mounted Warrior- An early Siphai, but weak on defense as well...
@Captainkeyes23: You said that the Mounted Warrior and the Sipahi are weak on the defensive, lacking the ability to survive. I find that the Immortals fit this descrption as well, yet you placed it first.
Well you also have to look at what other units are available when the Immortals come into play. The highest attack you'll see for a unit around this time in the game is 3 (swords, ac, other uu's). Comparing 3 attack to 2 defense isn't that huge of a gap and the gap closes even more when you consider the possible defensive bonuses. The available defensive unit at this time would be the spearman which also has a defense of 2 so it's not like you'd have a better defender available without using another civ's uu.
Compare that to the point in the game when the Sipahi becomes available. Even if you make a beeline for Military Tradition another civ can be 3-4 techs behind and still have Longbows, MI, or Knights to kill off your Sipahi. If they are on par techwise then you've got to deal with cavalry (Attacking 6-3 is much better odds than attacking 3-2). Also if you're going to escort the Sipahi with defensive units you take away the advantage its increased movement points would normally provide you with. The upside is the ability to run away and fight another day.
It just boils down to what you said a few posts up Tomoyo.... it really depends on the situation. I just started a game as the Persians and I'm a long ways away from any of the other civs. Even after establishing my core of about 6-7 cities I'm still 12-15 tiles away from any iron. I'd rather fill in the open land than send a stack of immortals a good distance just to win me some cities that will suffer from really high corruption. This basically means that Immortals are going to be useless this game since they'll be obsolete before I have to start wiping out the other civs. Sipahi would have easily been 10x more useful in said situation.
Isions personal list:
3. Man O' War (island maps only)
4. tied between - Hoplites and Enkidos
I actually like the F-15, as I don't engage in early wars. Its much better than the regular jet fighter and is excelent for reconsance.
There is no best UU it depends on the map, playstyle and difficulty level. My personal favourites in no particular order.
1. Hoplite/Enkidu Warrior
2. Man O War
5. Ansar Warrior
In most cases they are all an undercosted unit. Eg Enkidu Warrior is a undercosted spearman, Hoplite undercosted and early pikeman. The Siphai are just very good and the Man O War to versatile/powerful on non pangea maps to igmore and allow different tactics a full age early.
vanilla civ3 I'd say Mounted Warrior
This is about the zillionth time this question pops up.
My faves remain Sipahi, Rider, Ansar Warrior, Immortal, in that order.
Separate names with a comma.