Which UU's are too weak? Fix?

[Winston]

I agree Jags could do with beefing up but at least the aztecs get a good unique building.
The Celts get lumbered with the Gallic Warrior and the Dun, which gives the same promotion - I think the dun should give +2 xp to melee units instead of guerrila promos - the spanish get a similar bonus for seige units plus they don't have a lame UU

 

[Leif Roar]

The Celts get lumbered with the Gallic Warrior and the Dun, which gives the same promotion - I think the dun should give +2 xp to melee units instead of guerrila promos

Or at least Gallic Warrior should get Guerilla II if built in a city with Dun. (That would make Guerilla III reasonably cheap to get, which would at least give the unit some limited offensive bonus.)

 

[shivute]

The jaguar is weak compared to a normal swordsman, however I believe that the best way to play Jags is through whipping. I think they are cheaper? and with the Aztec UB makes them a good option. Numbers is the key with the jags.

Granted stat wise they don't look good (visually they look great!), but when you play with them you learn how to use them to their advantage.
Build them in your cities and whip some more, capture enemy cities and whip as many jags out of these cities as possible to maintain your numbers and momentum - it does work.

 

[bassist2119]

However, musketeers also get terrain defense bonuses while moving 2 squares. A stack of knights and musketeers can rip up enemy lands. Try to play on Marathon games--they do have a limited purpose. But at least they have a purpose.

I just really despise the Jaguar Warrior. For example, what was posted above: in an incredible specific situation when an enemy foolishly attacks you fortified on a jungle hill, the jaguar might win! ...I'd rather have any other ordinary foot soldier fortified on that jungle hill. Just because it would be so much more adaptable.

The Jag really strikes me as a "unique penalty" rather than a "unique unit"...

Musketeers are basically inferior knights (9 vs. 10) that come several techs later, but can beat pikes. Although addressing pikes is important, this really doesn't justify their utility. Particularly annoying since the new (XP) French leaders are great - Napoleon has luscious warmongerer traits and Louis XIV is one of the better cultural shoe-ins. I love 'em both, but never finished with either since I despise their UU.

I agree with you on the jags, though.

 

[Armorydave]

I cannot believe anyone is suggesting that Quecha's need an upgrade. They are arguably the most overpowered unit in the game. The main reason for this is the obsession the AI has with archers (barbarians and civs). If I do ever make the leap to Emporer from Monarch it is going to be with the Inca on a pangea.

Play the Inca on a pangea and add in 1-3 other civs depending on the size of the world. Build *nothing* but Quechas and send them out to find your neighbors cultural borders. When you do hover around them till a worker gets near the border, attack and grab the worker (make sure you have a Quecha train set up to escort him back to your lands) and then leave 1-2 Quecha to hover around their border to make sure they don't hook up any metal or horses. It is that simple. I have literally knocked out 3 civs before 0 AD using this strategy. They keep building archers, you keep owning the archers and building up city raider 3 Quechas and then you steamroll their cities. It is so easy I won't play the Inca on Pangea worlds anymore at Monarch level because it is such a rollover. If you think Quecha's are under-powered you are either stuck on an island (in which case no UU is particularly good) or are not using them properly.

My least favorite UU's are the late ones. Seals and Panzers are worthless in 90% of my games because we never get that far down the tech tree. Redcoats and Cossaks suffer from the same problem as I always make sure to wipe out the Russians and English before they get to Military Tradition or Rifling. Jaguars are the worst of the early ones but there are others that are not particularly good. I find little use for fast workers although they can give you a nice early boost and early improvements generate exponential benefits.

 

[Antilogic]

Agreed on the Quechas--they are strong. Plus, Industrious/Financial is not a trait combo to laugh at. Sure, it isn't a military combo, but that is one killer builder setup.

The only UU that I think really needs singling out is the Jag (I've already posted arguments as such on the previous page)--all the others are at least decent or have a purpose.

 

[Lord Kid]

In the interest of fairness, I gave both the Jaguars and Quechua a chance. I recently played a Standard speed/size Pangea on Noble, and found Izzy right next door, so I saved my game and tried the jaguar rush. By the time I got to IW, she already had a city defense of 40% with 3 warriors on defence. I captured the worker she spit out, but my company of Jaguars (about 5-6 units) all died an untimely death, so I reloaded and rushed her with warriors. 3 units of warriors took her city.

I then played a Standard/Marathon Pangea on Noble with Huayna and attempted to take Cathy, who was next door, with the Quechua rush. First wave all died even though she was defending with archers. So I reloaded and stationed the Quechua outside her city so she couldn't do anything while I beelined for cats, which took awhile on Marathon. Once I got BW, I augmented my quechua with axes, but still was unable to take her city as she already (almost from the start it appears) had a 40% city defence which went up to 60% by the time I had cats. BTW, all units were at least City Raider I from the barracks, and many were City Raider II from barbarians.

Based on this, it is my opinion that these 2 UU's make poor city sieger's. While the quechua were able to annihilate her archers in the field, there was no chance against them in the city. And by the time you get Jags, city defenses are high enough to offset any benefit from them.

 

[Wodan]

Based on this, it is my opinion that these 2 UU's make poor city sieger's. While the quechua were able to annihilate her archers in the field, there was no chance against them in the city. And by the time you get Jags, city defenses are high enough to offset any benefit from them.

I find it hard to believe that a Str 5 unit with CRII would not win against a Str 2 unit with 40% + 25% defense, except as a fluke loss.

You didn't write down the combat calculator odds, did you? That would be interesting to see.

Also, we should note that in both of these tests, you were fighting a capitol. Pretty much any other city (except perhaps a shrine) is probably going to have 0% defense, not 40%.

Wodan

 

[sirtommygunn]

i would put up the skirmisher i actually used it many times in a perfectly fair fight against archers (the unit it replaces) and it lost almost every time give it some more strength or a vs archery bonus to fix it
also armorydave r u ******ed the quecha is not the most overpowered not even close if anything its redcoat and im not going to say anything more to avoid going off topic like many threads end up doing
however i do agree with ur thoughts on the late uus they r worthless almost never used and even if u do manage to get to that era they arent going to make a big enough difference to change anything

 

[Lord Kid]

I find it hard to believe that a Str 5 unit with CRII would not win against a Str 2 unit with 40% + 25% defense, except as a fluke loss.

You didn't write down the combat calculator odds, did you? That would be interesting to see.

Also, we should note that in both of these tests, you were fighting a capitol. Pretty much any other city (except perhaps a shrine) is probably going to have 0% defense, not 40%.

Wodan

How do you get the combat calculator odds? And forgive me, but I thought that was the point of these early UU, to rush the capitol and smash the civ before they get a chance to expand. Am I wrong in this?

Edit: Are you refering to the odds it gives you when hold-right-click on the enemy when you have a unit selected? In that case the best I saw with Huayna before cats was with axes at 29%, the rest was much lower. I don't remember what Monty's was.

 

[wioneo]

I can't beleive that you guys don't like Berserkers! How can you pass up a chance to have amphibious city raider grenadiers? The load up galleys technique is great! Especially since the trading post gives navigation. The only problem with this strategy is the cultural defences. I usually attack with maces vs. archers/axemen, so collateral damage isn't necessary. I also believe that triremes should be able to bombard cities, but that's just a dream...

 

[Antilogic]

Umm...just because you had bad luck, sirtommygun, does not mean the skirmisher needs to be fixed. An extra strength point on an already good city defender is a good enough bonus for the Mali. And I disagree--Redcoats and Cossacks are Industrial era units, and they make plenty of difference in the game.

Quechas are quite useful in all the games I've played with them (all right, only one). Try attacking some city besides the capital, by the way. That's suicide, usually (as you found out)--Wodan has a point about striking their expansions, and limiting them until you can finish them quickly and easily with catapults at hand.

Sadly, Lord Kid, I wish it was as easy as playing a single game to determine whether or not a unique unit is overpowered or underpowered...

 

[Lord Kid]

I guess my logic and strategy was flawed in that I thought an early rush meant to go right after the capital. I do admit that I prefer civ's like Cathy over the aggressive ones, but I am liking Huayna at the moment because it seems to be easier to attack, take cities, then build infrastructure and keep a higher science level than other aggro civs, mainly due to the financial trait, I'm sure.

I guess I was just trying to point out with Monty was that it was easier to take Izzy's city with a company of warriors then to send Jags over.

 

[karr1255]

Well which aren't too weak? If you want to bring them all to praet level there would be a lot of work. But mostly I think the arab, celtic and french need some work.

 

[Wodan]

How do you get the combat calculator odds? And forgive me, but I thought that was the point of these early UU, to rush the capitol and smash the civ before they get a chance to expand. Am I wrong in this?

Edit: Are you refering to the odds it gives you when hold-right-click on the enemy when you have a unit selected? In that case the best I saw with Huayna before cats was with axes at 29%, the rest was much lower. I don't remember what Monty's was.

Yes, when you hold down Alt and wave the mouse over the target (hold-right-click does the same thing I think... I always use Alt for some reason).

I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong. It just seems strange that attacking 5 vs 2.2 would lose like you were saying. Yes, every blue moon you'll lose (that's the spearman killing the tank syndrome) but that's it.

(You know how the combat works, right? Let me see if I get this right myself... CRII would be +45% +10% for Aggressive, defender has +40% for culture and +25% for fortifying for 5 turns, that's total 65%. Subtract the 55 from the 65, so that means the defender is strength 2 + 10% = Str 2.2. The defender gets first strike but still an attacker of 5 vs 2.2 should win 99% of the time.)

It could be that you simply had bad luck that one game... ?

Oh and I wasn't talking about the Quecha at all. I agree with you there... every time I try to rush with them I get whalloped. I either have to throw x3 numbers or else simply use them to pillage and pick off the odd wussy city (which by the way is usually a good deal). Don't get me wrong, Quecha are WAY better than plain warriors. But, rushing with plain warriors on high skill level is a fool's errand too, so that doesn't say much about the Quecha.

Anyway, yes, rushing a capitol usually doesn't work no matter what unit you're using. It's ballsy and more power to you if you pull it off, but chances are all you'll end up with are a pile of dead units of your own.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I can't beleive that you guys don't like Berserkers! How can you pass up a chance to have amphibious city raider grenadiers? The load up galleys technique is great! Especially since the trading post gives navigation. The only problem with this strategy is the cultural defences. I usually attack with maces vs. archers/axemen, so collateral damage isn't necessary. I also believe that triremes should be able to bombard cities, but that's just a dream...

You have succinctly summed up my entire objections to the value of the Berserkers.

Wodan

 

[Armorydave]

also armorydave r u ******ed the quecha is not the most overpowered not even close if anything its redcoat and im not going to say anything more to avoid going off topic like many threads

Thank you for elevating the debate. Shame you can't comprehend anything I wrote.

 

[karr1255]

Signing in again to express my love for Berserkers. They're great against the AI and also work well versus humans or at least make them paranoid with their coastal cities.
Everybody knows how annoying it is to have a stacked dropped off from a boat which went by completely unnoticed. Berserkers make this so much worse and like wioneo said once they become grenadiers it gets even better(for you )

 

[Armorydave]

I guess my logic and strategy was flawed in that I thought an early rush meant to go right after the capital. I do admit that I prefer civ's like Cathy over the aggressive ones, but I am liking Huayna at the moment because it seems to be easier to attack, take cities, then build infrastructure and keep a higher science level than other aggro civs, mainly due to the financial trait, I'm sure.

I wasn't clear enough and did not mean to suggest attacking the capital until much later. *Usually* after you have axeman and/or catapults.

The idea with Quecha's is to terrorize your closest neighbors immediately. If you find them fast enough you won't even get diplomatic negatives from other Civs. I usually draw my 2-3 closest neighbors into combat via worker grab and don't give up peace until they are wiped out or manage to force my hand through good tactical manuevering. Yes, the AI occasionally makes a good strong move in ancient era combat.

Remember, because of city size there is effectively no war weariness in the Ancient world. You can fight for millenium if things are going well. I usually don't give anyone peace until I get Alphabet and can extort techs as part of the deal. Even then I always stay at war with the Civ I intend to wipe out first (don't want the diplomatic negatives of giving peace then starting the war again 20 turns later).

Use your Quechas to ****** growth and keep neighbors from hooking up horses or metal. They will shuttle their archers about their "empire" (1-3 cities depending on when you can make the worker grab) and occasionally towards your cities. Catch them in open field encounters and you will dominate. While you are doing this (and fending off barbarians) you can build up a few CR3 Quecha and several other well promoted ones. Once you get a couple good CR Quecha's start taking out non-capital cities (even ones on hills if you are willing to sacrifice a couple scrub Quechas before you send in the CR guys). The domination has begun.

While all this is going on find horses and metal and get them hooked up. Mines, cottages and farms can be built when there is nothing inside your cultural borders to chop. Since your opponents only have archers at their disposal any pillage party they send your way is just more exp for your budding Quecha horde. Needless to say, have your new slave workers chopping like madmen after you get slavery. Once I have a large Quecha force and a few other cities (one built via settler, a couple via conquest) I can usually grab Stonehege or the Oracle. I also got Hinduism in about 90% of my games because with Quecha's you don't need to b-line for axes or chariots. The AI throws archers and the occasional barbarian warrior early in the game and you can own them with the Quecha horde. My first two techs are Mysticism and Polytheism in every Inca game and it has worked almost every time.


Depending on your financial situation and resource placement you can upgrade those CR3 Quechas to axes relatively early in the game and maybe even take a crack at a capital city. You might lose them all but it is worth it to grab an early capital. Powell doctrine applies here. Never initiate a city attack unless you are backed by overwhelming force that you know will win even if it takes casualties. As an added bonus, if you don't lose your CR3 units the chances of grabbing a second early capital increase. You are also well on your way to qualifying for a Heroic Epic and your first general.

I usually have to wait until I get catapults to take out capitals but a good 25% of the Inca games I have played (played them about 10-12 times) I sacked an enemy capital prior to 0 AD. I nailed Izzy one game the turn after she founded Buddism with my starting Quecha.

So that is why I think Quecha's are overpowered. My highest score on Vanilla by far (over 70K) and my second highest Warlords score (just under 70K) were with the Inca. Oddly, my highest score on Warlords (over 70K) was with Mansa. I have much respect for skirmishers (and fear them greatly when playing the Inca, DON"T attack Mansa with the above tactics if he is in the game!). Needless to say, all three were early domination victories (the vanilla civ Inca win was in the mid-1500's).

Hope that clears things up a little. Play the Inca roughly as described above and you will be surprised how well it works on anything but an isolated or Archipelago start. The idea behind early UU's is to fight early wars. If the player doesn't t do that (or do it properly) it isn't the UU's fault

 

[Holycannoli]

Jaguars need a serious change. Like has been said, they should have an offensive bonus instead of defensive. This would be more historically accurate too; Jaguar knights were all about attacking and capturing enemies, not being good at defending themselves.

The only problem is it would help out the human player when playing as Monty, but when facing an AI Monty it would be a royal pain in the ass. You gotta wonder if we're all better off with Jaguars the way they are.