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Which victory condition?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by wkndwrrr, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. wkndwrrr

    wkndwrrr Warlord

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    I'm currently playing a game as Suryavarman (Noble, Large size, Big and Small map) and thought I'd ask for some advice on choosing which victory type to pursue. I'm well ahead in score and most categories that count (except for popularity). However, because I've turned off the Space Race condition, I can't directly leverage my significant technological advantage.

    My question is: should I try to go for Cultural, Diplomatic, or (somehow) Domination? It's in the 1600s, and I'm basically at a crossroads. I've go three cities that could fit the bill for cultural assuming I start focusing on that right now (because I'm playing as Khmer, I'm not even going to try spell their names). The main problem with a Diplomatic win is that I'm pretty unpopular outside of the Taoist bloc that I lead (4th in popularity). I'm militarily the most powerful nation, but unless I really start pumping out units now, I don't think I could make a serious bid for domination.

    Here's the save:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    In order to get some quality feedback I would kindly ask you to post screenshots as well as a saved game. I am at work right now and I would like to help you out but I cannot do anything with the save.

    It sounds to me lik eyou should be able to stomp everything in your path though, especially since you have a tech lead. Score means next to nothing. Get an army up and steamroll everything in your path. Start with the more advanced civ and work your way down. Make sure you have allies so you cannot get backstabbed. This may mean begging for gold so there is a forced peace treaty with the AI that may be bribed in the war against you. You could also bribe nations to go to war with anyone what may start a war against you. That way the Ais that are in peace will not get too much of an advantage while you are busyt waging war.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes. :)
     
  3. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    Both Cultural and Domination wins are very possible from this point, but I see that your hesitation on which one might be just dragging back your finishing date a bit.

    On Domination, building a Rifleman-and-Trebuchet army to vassalise Saladin and Joao, while tech'ing your way to more modern units for Roosevelt should be quite do-able. Once you've vassalised your home landmass, then it's take-your-pick from the remaining tribes with a relentless series of amphibious assaults; possibly you can do it with Infantry, Transports, and Destroyers, or maybe you might wait and go with Marines and Battleships.

    If you do want to go Cultural, you'd be well served by really working on spreading all four of your religions around so you can ultimately build a 'Cathedral' in each of your target cities. Look at the option of setting up two Great Artist Farms; in Yasodharapura (which will comfortably go Legendary before Angkor Thorn and Angkor Wat) and Vimayapura. The Caste System will allow unlimited Artists. In terms of tech', you're so deep into the tech' tree that I think that you can look at Sid's Sushi and the late-game cultural WoWs, but also tech' Biology, and maybe Railroad for Machine Gun protection. Build Fishing Boats for remaining seafood resources if going with Sid's Sushi. Angkor Thorn, Angkor Wat, and Yasodharapura need to be micro-ed to squeeze out every bit of culture they can, so make sure that your food needs are being addressed in these cities, and they're not constructing stuff that's of no use to them going Legendary.
     
  4. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    You are in a poor situation for culture at the moment. If you want to go for culture you need to start spreading your religions hardcore. Or you have to start spamming units and kill America then Arabia. Then tech nukes and nuke capitulate the world for a win.
     
  5. Comrade Somnios

    Comrade Somnios Chieftain

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    Wkndwrrr I'm happy for ya, and I'm gonna let you finish, but space race is the worst victory in the world. IN THE WORLD! *shrugs and hands mic back*
     
  6. wkndwrrr

    wkndwrrr Warlord

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    Alright, so primarily I need to work more on spreading my various religions to my candidate cities and pumping out artists if I am going to get a Cultural win, or for Domination I should finish my beeline to rifling and immediately go on the offensive against Saladin. I don't forsee too much trouble against him, as he still has only Medieval units; however, as this is a large map, do you think it is a little late to start a massive war of domination, particularly when most of it will be overseas?

    Either way, which goal would you say I'm farther advanced towards? I take the fact that none of you mentioned a Diplomatic win to mean that probably it would not be the best option. Thanks so far, guys.
     
  7. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    It's hard for me to say.

    I suspect that Domination (or Diplomation) will be the quicker finishing date, but you'll probably spend more 'minutes and hours' pulling your invasion forces together and overseeing the invasions, than going for a Cultural win which I envisage would be less 'real time' consuming.

    I still think that working quickly to get a seige-and-Rifleman based army to take out Arabia will put you on an excellent footing for the rest of the game (consider drafting Riflemen too). I can't see Portugal or America being any more problematic than Arabia provided you keep adding reinforcements to your stacks. Make sure that you help Catherine to be able to protect herself by gifting military technologies. If you can beat the rest of the world to Combustion and Assembly Line / Industrialism, then those enemy coastal cities should be pretty straight forward to acquire. Then again, Zx Zero Zx's proposal to go with a nuclear assault may do the trick too!
     
  8. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    IMHO, you're a lot better positioned for domination, with a vassal already, enough units to hurt saldain, and if you don't forget to research the right techs, you should be able to just steamroll him.
    You already have 2 galleons, and you can build more very soon.
    Building the Kremlin to get a better return on slavery would be good too.

    Nitpicking : you don't have enough food in your cities.
    And your UB is the baray which gives food ;)

    Hi, Cam!
     
  9. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    Well bonjour mon ami! :)

    There's actually a fair bit of room for improvement on terrain management, but I figured the focus was on the victory condition, and wkndwrrr's position is pretty good overall.

    The more I'm thinking about it, the better Domination is looking. The diplomatic situation's just a bit too shakey - I never trust Sitting Bull, and as for Genghis ... well ... and you've still got Saladin up there being annoyed. It just doesn't auger well for dropping your guard in terms of military tech's while pursuing things like Medicine and Mass Media. I still think that a Cultural win is very do-able, but Domination will bring better focus.
     
  10. wkndwrrr

    wkndwrrr Warlord

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    Alright then, domination it is. Thanks for your help, guys. I'll keep you appraised when I am able to find time to play again (probably this weekend).

    Oh, and what exactly are you referring to when you mention problems with terrain management- the food thing?
     
  11. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    wkndwrrr,

    I think that in a couple of these instances, you've tried to make a start on going for your Cultural win, and this has 'muddied the waters' a bit - most notably prematurely running Artists in your target cities. If you've yet to read it, Cultural Victory on the Higher Levels by jesusin is a great pointer in how to set up your empire with this target in mind. As per above, you might be better off going for Domination given where you're at with your game at this stage.

    Generally when you've got a lot of opportunity to grow big cities thanks to high happiness and health caps, it's typically good to make the most of that opportunity. There are a lot of cities that could be larger, but you've opted to go with low-food improvements or no improvements at all. You have fewer Workers than cities, which is generally frowned upon, and an awful lot of these Workers are building unnecessary roads where there are lots of tile improvements to be made.

    To illustrate with a few examples (although there are others), looking at some of your more developed cities (that is not newly acquired ones from the AI where you've inherited a lot of dumb AI decisions), firstly your capital (I know, not your original capital, and you're not in Bureaucracy, but still an important city).

    Jayendranagari;



    For starters, you've placed the city on top of a riverside Corn tile. The city square gets +1:food: for that, but a little overlap in order to leverage this resource would have been a ton more advantageous (an irrigated Corn Farm gets 6:food:, or 7:food: post-Biology), particularly as there are a few food-poor tiles in the same area. One third of the tiles that you can improve in this city's BFC are undeveloped including a Grasslands tile.

    Angkor Wat;



    One of your envisaged target culture cities, you've placed a couple of Artists to help culture along. Unfortunately again you've got undeveloped tiles being worked, including two really good ones; an undeveloped Floodplains and an undeveloped riverside Grasslands. Personally I'd put the Artists on the mines and try to get the Taj Mahal done as a priority, and in the meantime chop those two Forests (your health is through the roof), and get more Workers to assist you with Farms or Watermills on the Floodplains and the Grasslands (these tiles should not have been left so long). This city is currently food-neutral (will stagnate working every tile without a specialist), so once you get your population up with the Farms or Watermills, you can put Cottages on the Plains, and later convert the Floodplains and Grasslands over to Cottages. If you were going for a Cultural win here, investing time in those Cottages and ensuring that you get the Taj Mahal will more than make up for the culture generated by those Artists.

    Angkor Thom;



    Again, you're running Artists with the view to pushing up your Culture in this city, but you're not done in terms of getting your technologies right yet, and I'd work the Incense and Gold given that this is your Oxford University city. It also needs a Bank btw. You're laying down another Cottage on the riverside Grassland, which is the right idea, but very late in the game. You have the opportunity convert the currently undeveloped tiles to Cottages and still keep the city food-neutral.

    Nagara Jayasri;



    Currently stagnant, growth can be immediately found two ways; removing the citizen on the Mine for a tile that delivers food such as the last coastal tile, or stealing the Crabs off the neighbouring also-food-poor Yekaterinburg. By lifting the food haul, you can start working a few of those Plains Cottages, although at best you'll still be unable to work any of those northern Mines or two of your Plains Cottages. This city needed chain irrigated Farms for it to maximise its potential.

    Nagara Jayasri is probably a good example of the sort of thing to look out for. Some cities are just destined to not grow beyond a certain point, but others do have potential to grow more if you plan to chain Farms together.

    Also - if you're looking for a National Park city - that area south of Yasodharapura looks pretty well suited.



    So, I hope that might be of some help or at least food for thought ... although other CivFanatics might have different ideas about tackling some of these issues. As I said, there are other cities working undeveloped tiles, and others with great potential tiles (e.g. lots of Jungle in the north covering Grassland), so look for opportunities to grow these.

    I'd be interested how this game pans out for you! :)
     
  12. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    Being in a long weekend (6 days ;) )
    I played it out, domination of course.
    Spoiler :

    1846 win, with saladin totally destroyed, joao vassaled, roosevelt vassaled, gengis vassaled, sitting bull vassaled
     
  13. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    :culture: Went the other way out of curiosity ...

    Spoiler :
    Culture in 1865.

    A couple of bad pops with the Great People ... got a Great Scientist and a Great Prophet out of the five that I spawned, with the other three being Great Artists. I was all gearing up for Sushi, but in the end it didn't happen thanks to no Great Merchant.

    With that said, it wasn't absolutely great gameplay. The war with Saladin seemed to take ages to prepare for and then ages to execute. I should have gone after Cannons much sooner rather than attacking with old and limited siege units. I went Biology > Mass Media.

    I created a colony (the Maya) from the Mahedraparvata island, Joao voluntarily became my vassal, and I flipped San Fancisco towards the end. Came close (20 votes or thereabouts) to winning the U.N. diplo' victory without really trying.

    Anyway ... I'm sure a much earlier finishing date is achievable.

     

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