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While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Nylan, Dec 24, 2011.

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  1. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    I don't think there's a dearth of competent players to play in a high-quality modern NES, as the turnout for azale's NES proved.

    The mod problem exists, though.
     
  2. Wrymouth3

    Wrymouth3 Emperor

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    What is IOT doing that NES is not? Is there really a larger amount of players in IOT? If I had to give my 2 cents on the issue, I think a lot of people are just generally overwhelmed with giant blocks of posts and what not. It takes a good amount of dedication for NES, and I think a lot of newer posters are just simply scared of that fact.
     
  3. North King

    North King blech

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    It's a good thing we weren't angling for multi-player democracies, or extra-state actors, or, you know, any people in Southeast Asia.
     
  4. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    NESing is evolving and its current stage is this hate filled pit of snark and viciousness. And I wouldn't trade it for anything.
     
  5. Shadowbound

    Shadowbound Incorrugible

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    Almost time for a NES where players play members of Congress.
     
  6. m.t.cicero

    m.t.cicero Good Kid

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    Reserving Michele Bachmann.
     
  7. North King

    North King blech

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    Would play.
     
  8. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    Would play. I'm trying to make an American Congress simulation over in S&T.
     
  9. Ophorian

    Ophorian Holy Britannian Emperor

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    I want Todd Akin.
     
  10. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    1. You seem to have missed the actual argument which was a combination of "I actively hate working with most of your ideas because I find them by-and-large brain-meltingly stupid and they make me want to stab myself in the eyes with a broach" and "I have better ways to waste my time than doing things I actively hate."
    2. I don't owe you anything.
    3. Actually by fostering this discussion about an issue that exists, I am helping and you, by actively trying to shut it down, are not. I don't even need to reply to any of this.
    Actually, it does. Consider for a moment how many times you've justified turning in orders late because you couldn't be bothered to spend 15 minutes writing them. You've been at this for about 8 years so I'll give you a moment to try and recall how often that's happened. (Hint: a lot.)

    Now, although reading content in here takes a variable amount of time depending on how long a post is, and I'll grant you they are often quite short but some are not, let's say the average is 20 seconds. Let's assume half the views over the past 5 weeks were actual players and not lurkers. 15,000 x 20 seconds = 300,000 seconds = 5,000 minutes = 83 hours 20 minutes of community man hours. Adds up, doesn't it? Now imagine how many hours people throw away in say, #nes, or just staring at the subforum screen. Adds up. You have the curious phenomenon of people who think their hobby is too much work to engage in. Which isn't that surprising; I determined this was more about socializing than actually playing around 6 years ago.

    Arguments, not so much; attitude, yes. You're incredibly smug when really you have no justifiable reason to be. It's fine though because in about a decade you're gonna look back and want to punch your present self in the face. Don't worry, it's natural.

    NK covered it.

    lol

    Okay, no, but really, I want you to ask him how many people provided orders without having been harassed and cajoled into it. I want you to ask him what the average quality was. I want you to ask how many people ultimately never sent anything. And I want you to be aware that every. single. person. was late in submitting them. Like, I give Azale a lot of crap for that game, but saying that he got quality turnout and enthusiasm for it was a joke. And that's true for a lot of other games as well.
     
  11. Lord of Elves

    Lord of Elves Suede-Denim Secret Police

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    @Symphony_D, the NES forum encourages a certain caustic, self-assured argument style that few posters seem to succeed doing without (exceptions: Lord_Iggy, other people who somehow have made a career on this forum of being improbably, impossibly, nice). I get the "smug" complaint a lot from people so I'm due for a degree of introspection and all that lovely stuff. Nonetheless, I think I'm pretty well only as smug if not less smug (metric or imperial units?) than the lion's share of prolific posters on the forum.

    I'm also less than convinced that the data NK provided is particularly relevant to the statements (simplified for argument's sake) that a significant -- if not the majority -- number of NESes fail on their inception or die somewhere around the first few updates. Certainly it could be said NESes have succeeded more often in the past, or that there were a greater number of attempts in the past, but I remain unconvinced that NES suicide/abortion has not been with us since the beginning.

    Somethingsomething socialism somethingsomething feminism
     
  12. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    No one drafts war plans against Costa Rica.

    In many ways that isn't the argument. The argument is that it's historically unnatural that the community rest upon merely two efforts. Even if nothing at all had actually changed and there were only a factor of 2 or 3 more "big games" running, this perception did not exist, and perception is most of reality.

    I would actually argue it's down to just NK, because Botwawki 2.6 is pretty niche and a repeat stab at the same idea. Everything else is also niche or incipient. It's unusual.
     
  13. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    A lot of our more decent players are gone, das, dachs, insanepanda, alex, silver, goober and so on, there were a couple more names I'm forgetting.
     
  14. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    You're confusing nostalgia with quality.
     
  15. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    They were more or less competent for that time period.
     
  16. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    We are in no lack of quality, competent players today. I would say those we have are of an order beyond anything seen in the prime of those you listed.
     
  17. Daftpanzer

    Daftpanzer canonically ambiguous

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    Hypothesis: elitist attitudes make it harder for new people to get involved = inevitable decline as attrition takes hold. Then the system either collapses completely or a new, younger elite is formed and takes over in a bloody coup. Human nature etc etc.


    Is it bad I don't remember goober? I'm not sure das is 'gone'. Otherwise I agree with Luckymoose. Not to dis anyone, rather to the contrary.


    EDIT: nice to see my American comrades awake and posting at this ridiculous hour ;) 10 AM local, I'm guessing 4-5 AM across the pond.
     
  18. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Yo symph mentioned that we think our hobby is too much work to hobby. Well, it is. It's too much effing work to update. I had all the time and cause in the world to update AToCT and I didn't because I hated it. It was a ton of reading where I constantly had to make myself do more reading and research, when what I really wanted to do was sulk about how hard my life is and play video games. Then update rolls around and Shadowbound snarks about how I don't even know about Bavarians. Who gives a falk about Bavarians? Apparently I'm supposed to. No wonder the whole enterprise failed.

    Considering what people put up with back in the HALCYON DAYS which Luckymoose so correctly deconstructs, yo I think the problem is standards. They're too damn high. NK has spoiled you all with timely well-written updates that synthesize all that unreadable crap you spew at him into a coherent narrative. You want to do 2006 NESes? Easy as hell. Boot up MS paint and get geography-tracing. No matter what the time period, call every offensive a blitzkrieg and every stagnant war trench warfare. ArbiNES. It can be done.

    Reason I don't mod is because it's too hard and not remotely rewarding.
     
  19. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Hypothesis: people are abusing "elitism" as a concept to push their perspectives. It's not "elitist" to not want to take part in narratives which don't make sense, particularly when one knows they don't.
     
  20. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    As to my two cents, I would tend to agree with Luckymoose that we are in no lack when it comes to quality competent players, and with Crezths statement when he says that artificially high standards put strain on moderators (due to EoE dope or not). That said I think its fairly reasonable to say that player activity is firstly a) correlated to the regularity of an NES and b) to the perceived quality of the NES. Which is to say that when it becomes uncertain whether an NES will be able to be continued indefinitely or/and if quality within the paradigm of the NES is seen to be so-so (due to both moderator and player influenced factors) that investment by players declines concordantly, with this resulting in a self-perpetuating death cycle which eventually (short of a reversal) kills the NES. This would explain why there seems to be a threshold beyond which an NES becomes more likely to endure. After all a new NES by the very fact its new has the mark of uncertainty with regards to quality and staying power that an established one obviously doesn't have.

    -

    As to how I think prospective managers of new NES's might help their projects maintain staying power (obviously not accounting for the hard work and difficulties that come with moderating, what I'm talking about here is mostly how it may be possible to wheedle players to do their bit in increasing the perception of quality). Firstly on the part of moderators part I think making clear that player contributions are rewarded gives an incentive for players to produce content, and avoids the trap of players focussing only on statistical management and sending in orders to the exclusion of anything else if they do send in anything at all (leaving the threads barren of player produces works, which serve to encourage immersion build an engaging game environment). A good first impression then which is short and to the point, giving the necessary information while making that point clear should I think increase the prospective contributions to be expected of players (thus improving quality and the likelihood of players becoming invested in the longer term, and potentially reducing the reliance on the moderator to provide all the goods) and create positive initiative for an NES going forward, making it more likely to avoid the negative feedback loop of decline presuming the moderator can keep things going within his own time constraints or whatever. Luckymoose to give an example I think did this kind of preparatory work pretty well in his incipient NES In Titan's Shadow (He also alluded in the style of his maps to EoE, a proven success, which was a good marketing move in manipulating customer perceptions suitable for the kind of NES he is proposing although perhaps not so much for others) and if he can develop constancy and staying power than that NES could work out well. That said as I noted at the start of this paragraph, enticement only works insomuch as players respond to it. The key thing in what I'm saying about a good first impression so to speak is that a good first push in terms of player content (incited potentially by moderator compulsion) and development gives initiative increasing the likelihood that a game can reach stable territory presuming moderator regularity in updating output (obviously contingent on moderator will in the face of the hard work moderating involves, and RL). Ergo, player output increasing quality initially (and continued into the game) increases quality quite apart from what a moderator does (and might relieve some of the pressure off them) particularly if players refrain from buckpassing the producing of content in-thread to others (something most people are probably guilty of, and which incentivising content would hope to minimise) with diversity and quantity in player goods being as such sustained. In these circumstances the likelihood of success is higher than it otherwise might be if other factors align (ergo if a mod can keep updates coming, which I note needn't be NK style dope, if the players themselves make the game engaging).

    The second thing I would note which would increase chances of sustainability, would be inter-player interaction, and anything a mod might think of to encourage or incite this. This is because player interaction creates a sense of investment and vitality that running concurrent isolationist nations/polities/clans or whatever does not, and provides a boost to engagement and thus content. An example of where a moderator could encourage this perhaps might be (in a domestic politics or perhaps a GoT "House" based NES as an example) if the mod randomly started his NES with one player being King of the realm. and setting his game up so that there was a scoreboard regarding individual players power and influence (content bonus' included ofc) with (at the eventual end of the NES) the person at the top of the board winning the NES. This would make it imperative for players to usurp the King if they wanted to make it to the top, and encourage the forming of alliances and contacts (to either piggy back on the ruling power in oligarchic fashion until such time as its expedient to knock them off, or revise the starting order).
     
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