White couple arrested for pulling gun on black woman

[Farm Boy]

WTH does clothing have to do with this?

That's an implication you would blame a raped woman for wearing provocative clothing, unless I'm mistaken.

 

[GenMarshall]

It's second nature here, btw, for most people to apologize if they accidentally bump into someone. But there are times when they're rude and don't; if there's no real harm done other than rudeness, it's not something that tends to get blown up like this incident. Or at least that's been my experience most of the time.

I can attest to this. Though my typical reaction to accidentally bumping into people is saying “pardon me” or “excuse me” in a polite tone. I’ve had strangers bump into me purposely or accidentally and my reaction is just mentally think “how rude” and go about my day.

 

[Synobun]

I implore you all to never purchase firearms. You can't be trusted with them.

 

[Yeekim]

Why are you trying to "both sides" this?

Do you think what the mother did justifies having a gun pulled on her with the threat of being killed?

No? Then it doesn't matter. The one who pulled the gun is to blame. Next you'll tell us she shouldn't have dressed that way.

That is a good occasion to share a recent news story from back home.

Recently, a guy in Estonia was sentenced to jail for killing another guy.

The victim (a C-list celebrity) had divorced his wife, but they still had not agreed on how to split their property: she and their kids lived in their house in Tallinn while he had moved to live and work in Finland. Yet they jointly owned the Tallinn house and he stayed there occasionally too, even though the exes were on very bad terms. The wife had a new boyfriend and her ex-husband did not like that: he kept sending threatening texts to both. The wife had called police on her ex for domestic violence and also sought a restraining order against him. Since she knew when the ex was supposed to return from Finland again, the police was to intercept him at port and serve the restraining order.

However, the ex unexpectedly returned the night before. Coming to house, he found his ex-wife and her new boyfriend asleep and attacked them both with crowbar or a firepoker or something similar, so both received bleeding wounds to the head. As the wife escaped to neighbors, bleeding and asking to call police, his ex threw the boyfriend out of the house and told him to get lost. The boyfriend explained his car keys are still inside, so the ex went back inside, retrieved his car keys, pants and phone and threw those at him.

Thereafter, the boyfriend started his car and crushed the ex between it and the brick fence. Even though he then called the ambulance, the ex died in hospital shortly after. Killer claimed it was accidental, that he had been in shock, it was dark outside, blood in his eyes had disturbed his vision, etc, but the judges did not believe him.

Online comments were as divided as one could expect. Some claimed it had been a murder planned long in advance by devious wife (honestly, WTH?); others believed everything had been justified self-defense.

Murder would have been 8-25 years, "regular" manslaughter 6-15.
The court found it was not self-defense, because even though the victim had harassed, threatened and eventually attacked the killer, he was safely in his car and not under any threat when he ran the victim over.
They found him guilty of "manslaughter in provoked state" - i.e "committed in a state of sudden extreme emotional disturbance caused by violence or insult inflicted on the killer or a person close to him or her by the victim", punishable with up to 5 years. They sent him away for 2.5 years.

I think it is a great case that illustrates well how and why actions of both sides - including that of an eventual victim - need to be considered. The victim was a jerk who harassed and assaulted his ex and also started the conflict that got him killed. Does not mean killing him was not a crime, but his actions leading up to it were not irrelevant either.
Obviously, every case is unique - but just because one party committed a crime you should not say the victim's actions automatically "do not matter".

 

[Valka D'Ur]

She pulled a gun.

I know. I have said more than once that I don't condone that. But I also don't condone the over-the-top screaming and screeching that went on before that, and the daughter blocking the vehicle from backing up. That was an accident waiting to happen, and the girl was an idiot for putting herself in that kind of danger.

Answer my question: WTH does clothing have to do with this? You're the one who insulted me by obliquely accusing me of victim-blaming (that's what judging people by what they wear is about, by saying "they were wearing _____ so they totally deserved what happened to them"), so I think I'm entitled to know why you went there.

My saying the mother escalated the situation by her constant hostile screaming is a far cry from saying she deserved to be shot.

That's an implication you would blame a raped woman for wearing provocative clothing, unless I'm mistaken.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I have never blamed a rape victim for what she was or was not wearing. I am justified in asking Synsensa for an explanation for why he brought this up.

I implore you all to never purchase firearms. You can't be trusted with them.

Quote any of my posts where I ever said I favor firearms. Any of them.

You can't, because there aren't any. And in fact, when my dad went into the hospital/nursing home and he received a letter from the government wanting him to renew his registration for his hunting rifles, I contacted the police and told them that my dad could no longer use them, I want nothing to do with guns, please come and get them.

And if I were in this situation, I would not be the one screaming and screeching and blocking someone's vehicle and escalating the situation beyond reason. I would also not be the one pointing a gun.

 

[Hygro]

I doubt I'd pull it unless somebody was beating on the widow, but if they were trapping me aggressively somewhere after I'd tried to leave, you better believe I'd be refreshing my muscle memory on where it is.

That’s interesting. What about tapping on the window?

 

[Ajidica]

I implore you all to never purchase firearms. You can't be trusted with them.

That's why I own a sword.

 

[Berzerker]

Guns are not a deescalation tool. They are a promise of severe harm and intimidation.

If you're threatened with severe harm would you deescalate the situation?

 

[Farm Boy]

That’s interesting. What about tapping on the window?

Probably not. But I'm slowly getting less naive the more people get blown away where I fuel up and beaten to death in houses similar and near to where my parents live.

 

[FriendlyFire]

If you're threatened with severe harm would you deescalate the situation?

I think they went too far in pointing the gun, if they had been calmer perhaps just displaying the hoisted weapon would have been sufficient.
That also goes for the Black mother whom got overly aggressive over daughter being bumped, which was likely to be accidental. Jillian's half yelled, angry apology seemed to indicate this.

 

[Kyriakos]

https://www.detroitnews.com/videos/...-being-pulled-mom-teen-lake-orion/5362317002/

Sorry I can't embed the vid because it's on a news site.

Synopsis:

According to accounts, Jillian Wuestenberg, a white woman, bumped into a black teenager who was with her mother, Takelia Hill, outside a chipotle. The mother demanded an apology, which apparently Wuestenberg refused. At that point it looks like Hill's daughter begins filming on her phone. From there on the video you can hear Hill calling Wuestenberg racist and saying you bumped into her you need to apologize over and over, while Wuestenberg looks frustrated and says you're blocking my car.

At that point Wuestenberg gets into the mini van and her husband asks Hill who the f do you think you are? and gets into the drivers side. The next part is a little unclear because Hill's daughter moves the camera away from the action, but it looks like Hill got behind the mini van for some reason, probably to take a photo of the plate, and then the mini van started backing out and stopped abruptly. Hill then accuses Wuestenberg of trying to hit her with the car and Wuestenberg accuses Hill of jumping behind her car on purpose. At that point Wuestenberg pulls a gun on the family and says get the f away from my car. It kind of looks like her husband also had a gun. They then get into the car and leave.

The Wuestenberg couple has been charged with felonious assault.

End of synopsis.

I think this whole video is pretty disgusting behavior from both sides. I agree the Wuestenbergs should be arrested for something. I'm not a law person so I'll just assume the charge is appropriate. But watching the video it seems like Hill is goading them into an altercation. That doesn't excuse what the Wuestenbergs did and as gun owners they should be held to a high standard of when it's ok to use your weapon and that definitely was not ok. They weren't in any sort of danger.

It worries me that as a society we're so divided now and on edge that a little rudeness now turns into a racially motivated altercation. I have no idea from the video if Wuestenberg is racist and refused to apologize cus of Hill's skin color. Maybe she's just rude. If Hill and her daughter were white and did the same thing, minus the calling them racist part, I feel like it would've gone down the same way. Just replace racist with you're white trash and rude, and outcome would've been the same. I can't imagine Wuestenberg felt scared because they were black either, since it's a mom and daughter, like how sometimes white women call the cops on black men cus they feel scared. This seems like a completely different situation.

I agree with your view. Although it certainly was dumb of the gun-owners to pull out the guns. Maybe they were in a hurry and wanted this to end (?).
You can't just try to blackmail someone cause they didn't apologize to you, even if she had intentionally bumped into her it would still make no sense.
And filming the license plate couldn't be used as something to give to the police, cause the police can't fine anyone for just not apologizing for bumping into you. But the film could be uploaded on youtube, at which point you may create various dangers for the car-owners.

If the police had bumped into the girl, she and her mother would probably be gunned down now...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think they went too far in pointing the gun, if they had been calmer perhaps just displaying the hoisted weapon would have been sufficient.
That also goes for the Black mother whom got overly aggressive over daughter being bumped, which was likely to be accidental. Jillian's half yelled, angry apology seemed to indicate this.

The woman who pointed the gun was doing her best to remain calm. She didn't get angry enough to pull out the gun until someone got behind the car, preventing them from leaving, and the mother kept screeching and ranting, and banging on the window.

I do think that if I'd been on the receiving end of all that "you're a racist" invective, I'd have reacted with anger. Not enough to get physically violent, but enough to tell them to STFU and get away from the car. Not every rude incident has to do with race. That's ridiculous, as it implies that people of the same race (again, I detest having to use this word) are never rude or inconsiderate to each other.

I now have more to say about this comment:

Do you think what the mother did justifies having a gun pulled on her with the threat of being killed?

No? Then it doesn't matter. The one who pulled the gun is to blame. Next you'll tell us she shouldn't have dressed that way.

I rewatched the video, just on the off-chance that you were serious about the real issue being about clothing. Everything that had to be legally covered was, so there's no issue with the clothing.

Now let's get to the real reason for this remark of yours. I now have a very strong impression that you have just accused me of victim-blaming as many do to rape victims, along with a whiff of being racist.

I think I'm owed an explanation of why, especially when you've known me for a very long time on this forum (over 15 years), and I have never engaged in what you are suggesting I am doing.

There's another video along with an article, btw. It gives the other side of the story.

Have a look at this video, read the article, and then see if you still want to insult me. There's a hell of a lot more to this story than we saw in the first video.

That's why I own a sword.

I have a caveman's club. However, since it's just a theatre prop I was allowed to keep from a production of A Dish of Cream that I worked on back in 1986, and it's made from a plastic baseball bat covered with papier-mache painted brown, it wouldn't be very useful in a confrontation.

 

[Kyriakos]

That's why I own a sword.

I carry the staff of Hermes.

 

[Yeekim]

I think I'm owed an explanation

Now, don't you go banging on a window too

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Now, don't you go banging on a window too

Unlike the mother in the video, I am not hurling racist epithets while screaming that my target is a racist, nor am I seeking an apology that I know I won't get. I want an explanation for an insulting and unjustified insinuation/accusation (whichever may apply).

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Do you think what the mother did justifies having a gun pulled on her with the threat of being killed?

No? Then it doesn't matter. The one who pulled the gun is to blame. Next you'll tell us she shouldn't have dressed that way.

Somebody doing a bad thing isn't entirely absolved of that just because someone else does something worse. If I spray paint "Synsensa is a numpty head" on your house, and you come out and blow off my kneecaps with a shotgun, that doesn't mean it suddenly becomes unspeakably immoral to point out that my behaviour wasn't great to begin with.

As for the actual nature of this escalation. Can't really have a country obsessed with guns, where guns are as freely available as tap water, and not have things like this happening.

Also can we change the thread title to "Angry racist white couple threaten to murder innocent sweet black child" to make it more balanced please?

 

[Commodore]

It's not neutral, though. Yes, the mother didn't let it go, but the other woman pulled a gun. This is not something you do

The mother was acting in a threatening manner and indicated she had every intention of escalating the conflict. I mean she was literally trying to block her car to prevent her from leaving the scene. That sounds a lot like unlawful imprisonment. For reference, here's how Wikipedia defines unlawful imprisonment:

False imprisonment occurs when a person intentionally restricts another person’s movement within any area without legal authority, justification, or the restrained person's permission

So yeah, I find it outrageous that the couple was arrested for defending themselves while the mother gets away with a felony.

The mother was also 100% in the wrong here. If someone bumps into and refuses to apologize, you call them an a-hole and move on with your day. You don't escalate the conflict by getting in their face, detaining them illegally, and calling them racist.

 

[warpus]

Where I live if someone bumps into you both parties say "sorry" about 80% of the time

 

[Bamspeedy]

Where I live if someone bumps into you both parties say "sorry" about 80% of the time

So what happens the other 20% of the time?

People need to stop acting like what happened in Oakland is a regular occurance, there or anywhere in the US.

 

[GenMarshall]

So what happens the other 20% of the time?

My guess. 19% no incident happens and one or both parties assume they’re rude. 1% physical altercations.