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Who are "strong" leaders on Deity?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Seraiel, Nov 29, 2011.

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Which Leader do you consider viable for playing Deity?

  1. Huanya Capac (Inca)

    30 vote(s)
    62.5%
  2. Darius (Persia)

    18 vote(s)
    37.5%
  3. Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia)

    14 vote(s)
    29.2%
  4. Isabella aka Izzy (Spain)

    8 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. Victoria aka Viccy (England)

    6 vote(s)
    12.5%
  6. Elizabeth aka Lizzy (England)

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
  7. Justinian (Byzantium)

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  8. Hannibal (Carthage)

    12 vote(s)
    25.0%
  9. Mao Zedong (China)

    4 vote(s)
    8.3%
  10. Qin Shi Huang (China)

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%
  11. Hatshepsut (Egypt)

    13 vote(s)
    27.1%
  12. Ramesses (Egypt)

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
  13. Alexander (Greece)

    4 vote(s)
    8.3%
  14. Pericles (Greece)

    11 vote(s)
    22.9%
  15. Gandhi (India)

    14 vote(s)
    29.2%
  16. Asoka (India)

    8 vote(s)
    16.7%
  17. Mansa Musa (Mali)

    11 vote(s)
    22.9%
  18. Sitting Bull (Native Americans)

    4 vote(s)
    8.3%
  19. Julius Caesar (Rome)

    10 vote(s)
    20.8%
  20. Augustus Caesar (Rome)

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  21. Shaka (Zulu)

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  22. Charlemange (Holy Romans)

    3 vote(s)
    6.3%
  23. Mehmed (Ottomans)

    8 vote(s)
    16.7%
  24. Genghis Khan (Mongolia)

    4 vote(s)
    8.3%
  25. Justianian (Byzantium)

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Very interessting video with some very good moves against the AI, but please, attacking an Archer on a forrested hill while crossing a river? :D And what I still don't get is, why people are playing the same map several times, the knowledge factor is huge, like when you know you got horses or when you know Monty sits next to you and will try to backstab you or when you know that Justinian has Iron in the north and so on. Settings are surely more difficult than in my games, and I don't wanna critisize anyone playing a game, but I will get more sensetive to comments about "Marathon is easymode" from some people. "Try playing a map blind in one try without reloading or any knowledge, be penelized for every fault you make, even if you could not see it, and that forever" , I will answer to them in future.

    And I will try out War Chariots, that's one thing for sure. Immune to firststrikes? That's one big advantage when attacking Archers, could it be that Hatty is even more oped than Darius? And could it be that Darius is even more oped than HC? Just lost 8 (!) Quechuas to 2 (!) Archers! City was on a hill and I would have needed 10 (!) to take it. I'm sure 4-5 Immortals would have taken it easily, same for War Chariots.

    The list wasn't that well compiled due to my noobishness, which leader are you playing? :)
     
  2. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Ok, just tested out a little bit more on Darius and the Immortal rush. Ahcos, you can't be serious if you say it's "meh" for Deity, and people can't be serious if they consider HC to be broken but Darius ok. I just played 2 other games with him, I SIPed, didn't even have Horses in the BFC, but settled the 2nd City near some, build Barracks, spammed Immortals, nothing more. In both games, I conquered 2 Civs successfully until 1000 BC giving me sometimes more cities than my economy could even handle as I had bad luck with AI's not building cottages and I just took random starts (!) no dual Lux starts like I normally do. In the last game, my top Immortal was lvl 6, so I could have build WP if it had been available, also one gets waaaaaaaay more GG's with Darius than with Capac as one slays a ton more of Archers, as AI has Slavery and whips them like crazy. The only Tactic again being used, take out that Copper / Horses in the first attack, so one only gets Archers as Defenders, from thereon, total Annihiliation and Ragestorm without microing a single tile, with leaving the Advisor on, again, building nothing besides a Worker, a Barracks, and from thereon Immortals. Again, no choking, as I was simply trying out if pure Immortal spam works, it does!
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I tend to like playing with Hammurabi.
    Not because he is strong, but the traits are discrete, they do not mix the game up so much.
    Phi skews your game alot toward GP, fin skews you toward cottages. I like to play with "neutral" traits.
     
  4. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Ok, just played another game with Darius and lost to the first oponement. Do not want to get too much into off topic here, as the thread is still about the strongest leaders for Deity, but this is interesting:

    In the games I played up till now, the enemies were neither non-aggressive or only had horses. None of them had Spearmen built to defend themselves, 2nd ones of course not even being able to. This game, I played against Boudica who is aggressive, and she had a totally other mix of units. She had Horses and Copper, and in every City was an Archer, a Charriot, an Axeman and a Spearman! Could it be, that aggressive-AI has a totally other mix of units than non-aggressive-AI? I saw non-aggressive-AI mostly building Archers, sometimes a Chariot for exploration, but nearly no Copper Units. This was totally different when attacking Boudica.

    Next point of the game was, that the rush came somehow very late, as I think, about 1500 BC. I actually don't know until this point, which starts are preferable for an Immortal rush but I guess it's the high-production-starts, no commerce needed, and hopefully non-aggressive neighbours, so if possible 2 6 yield foods and lots of hills to be mined, so one can pump out Immortals in like 3-4T. An Oasis though might be very usefull for faster Research during the Worker production.

    If they have copper, it might be necessary to choke them and prevent them from building Spearmen, although I think, that this is only needed for aggressive neighbours, but, Immortal rush isn't as failsafe as I thought at first, I have to admit that.

    Last thing was, that getting Horses isn't as easy as I thought. Before the game that I lost to Boudica, I lost two other games before I could even rush at all, as AI simply had settled every horses even before my 1st Settler, being built at size 2, was even rdy. It came quite unexpected for me, that horses are that rare on Huge maps, in one game I had to give up even earlier, as there wasn't even a single horses ressource in any range!

    Anyway, the Immortal is awesome at fighting Archers, after having lost 8 Quechuas to 2 Archers in a Hills City but having conquered like 10+ Hills-Cities with Immortals now without even reckognizing, I must say that Darius disadvantage mostly is that he rushes so much later than HC. With HC, only very few targets have horses, even fewer have copper, and it's even easier to choke them, because one has more units. Therefor, Darius main advantage of the better economy due to fewer, more expensive units that come later, seem to also be a big disadvantage when it comes to strategy and tactics.

    I will go and test out some more with him, one thing I'm at least quite sure about up till now, is that 2 cities are better than just 1, as 1 city usually does not pump out enough Immortals to go against the Slavery whipping AI, so BO Worker -> Barracks -> grow to Size 2 -> Settler -> Worker and AH -> Mining -> BW still seems the fastest way to rush. I just say that, as with Capac it's totally different, one city fully producing Quechuas at high speed is enough to conquer 3 empires up to 2500 BC, with Darius I haven't even found a way to have enough Immortals up to 2000 BC, maybe I should go for even more Cities, but I think that would slow me down even further, what do you think?
     
  5. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Yeah. The thing with Darius is that it takes longer to set up than Capac. As a result, you can run twice as many games with Capac (and quit when it fails) than Darius.

    Darius's real money comes in when you start next to someone like the Khmer or next to an enemy civ with STONE. The thing with the Quechua rush is that the cities you capture are relatively small and will not have Wonders in them. The primary advantage of the immortal rush over the Quechua rush is that you can capture a city with the GW or the Stonehenge in it, along with like a granary. Also, you'll capture more workers, and their cities will be better developed.

    Agg civs like Boudica, Ragnar, and Monty prioritize War techs like BW. Avoid them if you see them with copper. Immortals do not work against spears. Also, stay away from Pacal.

    Also, on Huge maps, the resource generation can favor you sometimes too. On some maps, your starting area has lots of horse, BUT VERY LITTLE COPPER. This means that immortals can rain death and destruction forever.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Wow, that was interessting :)

    Capac sucks really bad though at taking hills cities, the immortal is much better there. All I didn't get till now was a round where I could conquer someone with decent land, sometimes I started in the middle of the map which is selfkill for diplomacy when playing Huge 17 Civs, sometimes they just didn't go cottages, sometimes the good ones were Aggressive (I guess I have to rule that out again, after conquering Ghandi + Asoka with Immortals today, best move of Ghandi: Whip a Galley when I was standing with 5 Immortals in front of his City :>) but that's not a matter of the leader but the settings + tactics.

    I still find it hard enough, to produce enough immortals to take out copper / horse + capital in 1-2 turns. And after that, troops have to heal so much, guess I should make 1st GG Medic 3, AI whips out too many Archers in the time the units heal. Will try out again now, the Immortal is definately stronger then the Quechua and I like ORG more than IND, borderpops are a problem though, but that again is only a question of getting a Religion somehow, which can, as you said take forever on Huge if one doesn't found one. Tbh imho one of the biggest advantages Capac has, he can get a Religion 100% if he has the right start / right oponements.

    And one thing I cannot take into account, and that's the Wonders. With HC you're actually able to build all those shiny Wonders yourself, giving you enormous borders which help tremendously in a war, as the attacker often needs 3 or even 4 turns to reach a city. Just take a look at this Screen from 100 AD :)
     

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  7. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    I like mehmed for this reason myself.
     
  8. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Read the "Money grows on trees" thread before considering the switch out of IND. And consider NOT building Wonders at all (instead relying on fail-gold).

    I'm seriously consider playing Ramsesses. He of the War-Chariot, IND variety.
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @Seraiel

    I missed your question about "why play the same map again". This actually is one of the methods how to learn what works and what not in situations and I think I saw it mentioned here some few times that playing the same map 10 times first 100 turns is a lot better then playing 2 maps for full number of turns... both will need the same number of hours in your real life, but the first method sharpens your early game.

    Of course such thing is not possible with HoF.

    And then there is the thing with VIDEOS! Ok I made some videos too and what I found is that you always have to think about your viewers.
    You have to view AZ videos as educational and entertaining and I fully accept he has to know some things if he wants to teach us something and trust me, his videos moved me from Monarch-Emperor to Immortal+ just from watching them.

    He knows his stuff ;-). I have no doubts about him, we saw him do some really nasty stuff with AI's without reloading, WBing, so if he in latest videos helps himself with WB and/or reload, I fully accept it as an demonstration what I should do in more favorable setting (like for example the last Ragnar video where he got blocked Iron by barb city and then the city just disappeared ;-)).

    And aside...I am happy he reloads here and there too...like any other mortal ;-).
     
  10. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    to please link
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Quoted for truth.

    I reload/replay all of time time, only way to learn the early game properly.

    It's not like you are cheating, beelining BW in a non-forest low food situation, just because you know from your previous game that there is copper. That would imo just be cheating, and not learning anything.

    But fiddling around with techpaths, order in which improvements are made, buildorders etc.. Such things you have to try multiple things, to know if your decisions are sound or not.
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I have to admit, in my earlier games, I also reloaded VERY often, sometimes I told myself that I was just learning, sometimes I simply wanted to win and sometimes, I just didn't like the outcome of a situation, like my GG dying in a 99,5% fight.

    After having to play without reloading now, I have to say though, that the learning effect is greater without reloading, and I believe that. One gets punished so hard sometimes, one doesn't simply make the same stupid mistake a 2nd time. I just lost the most beautiful two riverside gold fp's start, because from 15 cities I attacked, 10 were on hills. I learned A LOT though, and I will never ever make the same mistake twice, to attack a hills city with only 3:1 odds. If I see a hills city in the future, I will make a big way around it, and if I have to take it, I will attack with a 4:1 ratio as 3:1 simply isn't enough. In the past I attacked with 2:1 like it was a normal city, I learned the hard way, that a 50% bonus to Archer strength is HUGE, but I also learned, that one can attack with 0,2% chances and win, if the force is even great enough. To make it short, I know last game would have been winnable, because the land was actually so good, I could pump out Checkers (I will call the Quechua like this from this point onwards) at a rate of 2 per round or so. If I simply had attacked with even greater numbers, if I had simply choked even better, I would now not be so mad at my faults, which mainly were lazyness and hoping that "it just would work out". I will never ever be lazy again or hope that it will work, I will make sure it does really!

    That's the difference, between a real loss, and an unreal one, where one simply reloads. Not getting the satisfaction is one of the biggest motivations one can get, to improve. One convinces oneself that one is learning with reloading, but one isn't. Loose every start for 1 week, then you will have learned something, namely you will have learned to not do whatever you did, and you will stop trying, but actually do it.

    I had a game, where some AI was vassalizing everyone, and I was just sitting there watching it do it and I didn't learn anything, until that AI DoWed and raped me. I didn't have to reload, to find out, that going straight towards the capital and conquering it while destroying half of the entire army that AI has, will make it surrender, and I observed, that I can join wars with a vassalizing AI and get diplomatic bonuses for being in the same war, but I still didn't learn that I have to join EVERY war with a dominant AI to steal the vassal from him until it happened again in my last game, with me again sitting there like "omgosh, what is that AI doing" and seing it take my whole worked out advantage from me. What I had to learn was to "stop sitting there and just watch", and believe me, I still have to make my way on that one, but last game was a good lesson, as it costed me at least 300y in the finish date and 200k in the score, making my game not as good in HoF as it could have easily been if "I hadn't just sit there and watched", if "I hadn't just hoped it would work out" and in my score attempt on Big & Small, if "I wouldn't have been so lazy to take the city advisor for 80+ cities".

    Real learning is not about a game or buildorders, it's about oneself. That's why there is this sentence, it from Sun Szu i guess (I cannot quote correctly in english) "Know your enemy, and you won't be defeated in 100 battles. Know yourself, and you will be undefeatable".
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Learning weater or not to build workboat first, worker first and what tiles to work when, is not something that you can learn without extensive reloading, comparing results and trying different paths.

    Same with techs. Should you go AH first or BW first in that specific situation? You don't know for sure, but you can try them both out, and see which yields the better result. You can then evaluate why, and how to learn from your results.

    Playing without reloading is the same as playing speed-chess, without taking notes and without analyzing your game. It's simply a waste of time, you do not improve that way.
    To get better, you accually have to do the hard work analysis requires, sit down and do your homework.
     
  15. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    There is no such a leader as a "strong" one, but the best leader for such a map and/or strategy.

    You'll miss PRO+Hunting if Shaka is your neighbor.
    Or we'll probably need AGR if stuck in a peninsula with poor tiles.
    Or we wish we were IND when having failed in a wonder rush.

    Adapt the strategy to your game. Make good use of your traits/ub/uu/starting tech.
    Then every leader should be strong.
     
  16. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    FIN+CRE rules on Deity :D hihi.. if PA is on, ofcourse.. get strongest AI as your wife (Hatseput in current game) and... relax and go for win.. still have 16 AI left but now its question of time only :D
     
  17. mtr12

    mtr12 Prince

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    PA is fun when you're playing by yourself, but it's just too abusive when playing a "real" game.
     
  18. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

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    As said few posts above, the best is map dependent; so here I'm just citing the leaders which IMO are most flexible in all the maps. I'm weird and silly, but my vote for the best in a 'generic game' on deity would go to Hatshepsut. Spi and Cre are the most useful and flexible traits IMO. And I don't give too much weight to the UUs: except for the fast worker that gives a nice 'bonus' which last the whole game, and the keshik that has a quite long time span and allow for strategies other civilizations can't (or hardly can) try, all the other UUs doesn't noticeably influence the strategies of a 'generic/unknown/random' game, and neither the results IMO. So I pick Gandhi and Genghis (yep, over Kublai, because I like tons of GGs settled in my HE city :D) as 2nd best and 3rd best.

    About reloading / replaying the same map, I hardly do, it bores me to death play twice the same turns on the same surrounding (and this is likely the reason why I never tried playing a CIV "scenario"). However, I can believe it could work to learn, also if I don't believe is necessary: experimentation is the key, on the same or different maps it doesn't matters IMO.

    Cheers. :)
    - yatta

    OT: Munich... I've been there for tourism, very nice place! :)
     
  19. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    This poll is complete BS. Boudica is the best leader. I'm not playing either ~~
     
  20. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    For high scores, I'm seriously thinking Ramsesses.

    Reasoning: FIN isn't all that useful for high scores. The reason is because cottages don't come online really powerfully until later, and by then the game should have ended. On the other hand, SPI allows to not lose turns due to anarchy, and also you can build fewer workers thanks to Serfdom.

    IND is for fail-gold and post-rush recovery.

    And the War Chariot is for the early rush.
     

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