Who are "strong" leaders on Deity?

[SnowlyWhite]

for a random map... hatty; com'on, nothin' changed...

really, how many of the voters actually win on deity? HC? on deity? what's so good about HC on deity?! darius? when was deity about fin? org. is quite good, I agree.

ckns rush on deity? really... HA rush while waiting for maths?

and when do you folks end your games? in rene? pffs...

you rush 1 in 10 games on a normal map on deity; or well, it's optimal to rush that is. You can rush each game, obviously. If you wipe someone, in 90% of the time you're just giving room for another ai...

and no, marathon doesn't count; as an ex marathon player, it's at least 200% harder on deity on marathon due to inability to block effectively and because you'll get declared in bcs a ton of times by ais that declare at pleased due to # of turns/war checks - you'll fail one of those checks(and while you can last in an early declaration on deity, you'll be unfunnily behind). Drop marathon - you'll fail most of the random starts on deity marathon.

 

[Seraiel]

As said few posts above, the best is map dependent; so here I'm just citing the leaders which IMO are most flexible in all the maps. I'm weird and silly, but my vote for the best in a 'generic game' on deity would go to Hatshepsut. Spi and Cre are the most useful and flexible traits IMO. And I don't give too much weight to the UUs: except for the fast worker that gives a nice 'bonus' which last the whole game, and the keshik that has a quite long time span and allow for strategies other civilizations can't (or hardly can) try, all the other UUs doesn't noticeably influence the strategies of a 'generic/unknown/random' game, and neither the results IMO. So I pick Gandhi and Genghis (yep, over Kublai, because I like tons of GGs settled in my HE city ) as 2nd best and 3rd best.

About reloading / replaying the same map, I hardly do, it bores me to death play twice the same turns on the same surrounding (and this is likely the reason why I never tried playing a CIV "scenario"). However, I can believe it could work to learn, also if I don't believe is necessary: experimentation is the key, on the same or different maps it doesn't matters IMO.

Cheers.
- yatta

OT: Munich... I've been there for tourism, very nice place!

Hi Yatta

Your Vote doesn't seem so weird and silly at all, Hatty is regarded as the strongest leader of all by various players.

Greetz, Sera

This poll is complete BS. Boudica is the best leader. I'm not playing either ~~

This poll is definately no BS. Maybe I chose the wrong leaders due to being a Noob still, but I learned more about leaders in this discussion than in 1 month reading the forums, so be happy with your Boudica instead of dissing others.

for a random map... hatty; com'on, nothin' changed...

really, how many of the voters actually win on deity? HC? on deity? what's so good about HC on deity?! darius? when was deity about fin? org. is quite good, I agree.

ckns rush on deity? really... HA rush while waiting for maths?

and when do you folks end your games? in rene? pffs...

you rush 1 in 10 games on a normal map on deity; or well, it's optimal to rush that is. You can rush each game, obviously. If you wipe someone, in 90% of the time you're just giving room for another ai...

and no, marathon doesn't count; as an ex marathon player, it's at least 200% harder on deity on marathon due to inability to block effectively and because you'll get declared in bcs a ton of times by ais that declare at pleased due to # of turns/war checks - you'll fail one of those checks(and while you can last in an early declaration on deity, you'll be unfunnily behind). Drop marathon - you'll fail most of the random starts on deity marathon.

I don't wanna offend you, but I Checker-Rush regularly on Deity Marathon, and have become so reliable with it, I can wipe out 3 Civs in 90% of the cases. I do need a special Start though, so it's nothing for random maps, but given a plain hills + a forrested plain hills to work, functions. And I ended last game in 640 AD, but I'm still a Noob who plays for 2 Months and made lots of mistakes, I'm surely gonna get better and finish earlier.

Hearing from you that Marathon is harder though, is very interessting, as I normally get flamed for it as playing easymode.

Greetz, Sera

 

[ahcos]

for a random map... hatty; com'on, nothin' changed...

really, how many of the voters actually win on deity? HC? on deity? what's so good about HC on deity?! darius? when was deity about fin? org. is quite good, I agree.

ckns rush on deity? really... HA rush while waiting for maths?

and when do you folks end your games? in rene? pffs...

you rush 1 in 10 games on a normal map on deity; or well, it's optimal to rush that is. You can rush each game, obviously. If you wipe someone, in 90% of the time you're just giving room for another ai...

and no, marathon doesn't count; as an ex marathon player, it's at least 200% harder on deity on marathon due to inability to block effectively and because you'll get declared in bcs a ton of times by ais that declare at pleased due to # of turns/war checks - you'll fail one of those checks(and while you can last in an early declaration on deity, you'll be unfunnily behind). Drop marathon - you'll fail most of the random starts on deity marathon.

Erm... watch this regarding HC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m333QAVtPaY

Cho-ko-Nu rushes work quite nice...

I won't go through everything else you said, but i consider Marathon to be alot easier than normal speed, let alone Quick speed. Yes, you have more warchecks, but otoh it's alot easier to outplay the AI on the military side. Cities @ chokepoints and you're pretty much set.

 

[mtr12]

Marathon is easier from a warmonger's perspective, but yeah I would assume that if you're playing peacefully like you do on Normal, it would be harder since there's more DoWs.

The only thing for sure is that it's a completely different game. If you like it, go for it!

 

[yatta77]

(...) i consider Marathon to be alot easier than normal speed, let alone Quick speed. Yes, you have more warchecks, but otoh it's alot easier to outplay the AI on the military side.

I definitely 10000% agree on this:
- 3x movement speed
- 3x turn between next generation troops
- 3x faster healing
- less hammers cost for troops (it is not 3x)
to defeat AIs military, it is quite clear what speed settings are the most favorable: the longer the game it lasts (in turns), the easier it gets. And this is math.


@SnowlyWhite

I enjoy playing both, Normal and Marathon speed, and I would never claim marathon being harder, LOL... Cultural victories where you play crossing your fingers to avoid wars, might be the only exception to this, but this still have to be proven since I hardly miss a cultural victory on Marathon/Immortal.

Take Mongolia (or you favorite war campaign oriented civ), play on Pangea, Marathon, and be aggressive. This is the easiest "scenario" to achieve a victory over Ais.

And this is not Level dependent: Emperor, Immortal (speaking for myself, the level I defeat regularly not giving myself further 'house rule' restrictions) or Deity, it doesn't change, you still give yourself the best conditions of victory.

Nothing wrong playing marathon, but please, be objective!

About Hatshepsut: to win the game, did you ever try something different than conquer your neighbors lands (which is the easiest way to do it)? Like impose yourself to win the game without wars? If you do try something different than domination, you will found out how much traits as spiritual and creative are more valuable than your favorite UU. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm the weird and silly one...

Cheers.
- yatta

 

[SnowlyWhite]

on any other level than deity, marathon is easier.

I've switched from marathon specially for deity playing(again - random map, random leader - not settle on stone plain hill with a forested plain hill HC start or things like that). Otherwise, I still don't like normal due to too fast action for me(but that, obviously, it's a matter of taste).

it's not about how early you can win or how high your score can be(both will be better on marathon), but about how many starts are "unwinnable" on marathon with random map/leader.

There are <10% unwinnable starts on deity normal, while probably ~30-40% unwinnable on marathon(ai 1 declares, then everyone checks you for dogpile, you fail one check, a2 declares, you lose relations, you can't switch to another religion because you'll drop from pleased since you just lost relations, bla bla). Ai1 wars ai2 3 times in 100 turns, you get 3 requests to join, you refuse, your relations are a screwed, everyone comes and demands philo before you're ready to trade, you bribe a war ending with all your tech advantage only to have them redeclare before you even manage to acquire the next tech., etc. And 50% of the time, if you're in isolation, by the time you find them, there's already a super ai with 2-3 vassals.

Playing JC with iron around each time doesn't count as random... And HC is 95% of the time an mildly above average leader and nothing more. It's like saying FDR rocks because you only play archipelago...

About Hatshepsut: to win the game, did you ever try something different than conquer your neighbors lands (which is the easiest way to do it)? Like impose yourself to win the game without wars?

many times; not from house rules, but from that fact that no war games are less time consuming(real time wise), so, most of the time I space out.

p.s. - regarding chkns - it's about pulling it consistently. Chkn rush is probably one of the most situational things in game... At least an early rush with an early uu(immortal, wc, vulture - heck, even phants or pretorians which aint' so early anymore) has 20-30% chances of being able to pull out consistently, but chkn is ~10%(maybe you got boxed in and have no iron, maybe you don't need to rush, maybe... etc - leaving aside I never understood what's so sexy in a 6str attacker with no cr vs. a 3str defender with city bonuses; rifle vs lbow is 10 times better and 100 times more reliable. Oh, and draftable to boot).

 

[yatta77]

on any other level than deity, marathon is easier. (...)

Ok, I got your point. I'm not so sure about the fact that it is true, but at least it does make sense.

many times; not from house rules, but from that fact that no war games are less time consuming(real time wise), so, most of the time I space out.

And it those cases, don't you agree that good/preferred traits are more useful than "good" UUs? About the modern war being time consuming and tedious I 100% agree, and I would add that it is true especially on higher levels, where conquer lands takes forever, especially on marathon.

Cheers.
- yatta

 

[ahcos]

Oh, ok, if you take superearly daggers into account, Marathon is probably the speed where this will happen the most. But that doesn't mean it's per se harder to win, just because random things like that occur more often.

Let's presume that when you drive a car very slowly, your chance to hit a nail and therefore your pneus will flat out are higher, and other way round (faster -> less chance). That doesn't mean it's saver or easier to drive faster, rather the other way round.
Just because the game screws you in this aspect of the game doesn't make marathon harder, it makes it more luck/unluck dependant.

Marathon is (alot) easier, pre-AD-daggers aside.

Regarding cho-ko-nus: yes, it's a situational rush. So what? Doesn't make it bad. If Chkns would rely on a certain resource like horses that only spawns in 10% of the starts, would you believe it's bad just because your chance to get a start that allows Chkns is low? Makes no sense to me. It's a great rush if you have a start to pull it off.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Oh, ok, if you take superearly daggers into account, Marathon is probably the speed where this will happen the most. But that doesn't mean it's per se harder to win, just because random things like that occur more often.

Let's presume that when you drive a car very slowly, your chance to hit a nail and therefore your pneus will flat out are higher, and other way round (faster -> less chance). That doesn't mean it's saver or easier to drive faster, rather the other way round.
Just because the game screws you in this aspect of the game doesn't make marathon harder, it makes it more luck/unluck dependant.

Marathon is (alot) easier, pre-AD-daggers aside.

Regarding cho-ko-nus: yes, it's a situational rush. So what? Doesn't make it bad. If Chkns would rely on a certain resource like horses that only spawns in 10% of the starts, would you believe it's bad just because your chance to get a start that allows Chkns is low? Makes no sense to me. It's a great rush if you have a start to pull it off.

The issue with Marathon/Huge/Diety is that the AI can make much better use of the extra land than you can. On ordinary starts, once you get to 4-6 cities, that's basically all your economy can afford. The AI can jump to 8-12 cities easily.

This is why normally you have to kill someone to catch up. You can't just sit on 4-6 cities at that stage.

EDIT: The issue afterward is this: how badly are you behind in tech?

 

[mtr12]

This poll is definately no BS. Maybe I chose the wrong leaders due to being a Noob still, but I learned more about leaders in this discussion than in 1 month reading the forums, so be happy with your Boudica instead of dissing others.

He was trolling bro, Boudica is crap. Bad starting techs make a difficult opening, the worst UB in the game, and a UU that only Shines with Guerilla III...and by then, Catapults are doing all your heavy lifting anyways.

 

[Archbob]

Capac is so overpowered in BTS, its not even funny.

 

[ecuwins]

Yeah, it was tongue in cheek. I only like Boudica when I cook her a proper map...and then, I love her. CHA + AGG has mad synergy, unfortunately most everything else about her is junk.

 

[mtr12]

Yeah, I guess they had to balance the Celts somehow. Similar to how the Spanish UU is balanced by poor starting techs and a non-synergistic UB. I mean, Citadels can be great for CRIII Trebs/Cannon, but those don't really work with Conqs.

 

[Archbob]

Yeah, I guess they had to balance the Celts somehow. Similar to how the Spanish UU is balanced by poor starting techs and a non-synergistic UB. I mean, Citadels can be great for CRIII Trebs/Cannon, but those don't really work with Conqs.

Too bad they didn't balance the incan UU with anything.

 

[mtr12]

Well, if you want to Quecha Rush, you give up the chance to set up an SSE that exploits IND/FIN. It sorta works out, though Huayna is still perhaps the game's strongest Human vs. AI leader.