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Who are the best leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Bast, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Rusty Edge

    Rusty Edge Deity

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    I liked this thread a lot better when it was a positive discussion of character qualities and accomplishments of the Real Life leaders who appear in this game.
     
  2. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    Spot on. Especially when you consider the fact that in most ancient societies(particularly true for Egypt, mesopotamia & China), slaves were basically captured war soldiers & citizenry of the city you just pillaged.

    When you have a huge bunch of slaves gathering around/kept together for year and years, especially when a lot of those slaves are former soldiers, the chances of a 'Spartacus' is fairly high- its just a matter of 'taking your opportunity'.

    Civilization is a lot about economics - it is true today and it was true 10,000 years ago. And while our ancestors 100 generations ago ( or for some even today) may have held some pretty ******** beleifs about their purpose in life/reason for universe, they wern't exactly stupid when it came to money matters.
    A Paraoh may have all the God complex in the world but if he/she sees that 'sweatshop labour' is way cheaper than 'captured slaves + army sitting around', they wouldn't blink an eye to take the cheaper option.
    Even the dumbest of rulers don't knowingly take the quickest route to bankruptcy.
     
  3. meatwad4289

    meatwad4289 Prince

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    ok. I tried to keep it cool. But this guy is just not letting things go. Sound's like someone is into conspiracy theories, Well frankly, I AM NOT. My step father tells conspiracy theories, and it's the SAME BULL ****. Atleast his are entertaining and contain some truth, just widely stretched out. I'm seriously sick of seeing "Ahimsadharma" every other post Bit**ing about everything, and spreading hate and lies. You try to act civilize so those who criticize you look dumb, Well guess what, you pissed off alot of people. I've showed some of my friends, who are or have parents(and therefore frequently visit) other countries, some from Korea, some from Japan, some from England, some from Albania, some from Iraq, some from Saudi Arabia and various others, I showed them your posts, They laughed and said several things about you, that are inappropriate to say here, but to give you a clue, it had something to do with low intelligence. So since you contineu to act like a child, I will treat you as if you were a child, because in my honest belief your probably 12 years old, thinking your a big boy, but oh no, You aren't those accidents you have at night aren't a sign of man hood.

    Are you Dumb? Are you? really dumb? I said that these Egyptian Slaves died building the pyramids, That is a fact. I'm not disputing some people even today will die from manual labor, because that is true. So what the hell are you talking about really? Come one little buddy.


    So. Slaves in Ancient Greece and Rome are all part of a Judeo-Christian Propaganda? Slaves in China and the Middle east never existed? Wow thats stunning news, They should have that on the news sometimes...... Wow. Kid, it is a widely known fact that SLAVERY EXISTED. And that SLAVE LABOR WAS USED ACROSS THE PLANET. Also a known fact that the Ancient Egyptians had slaves, as well as ancient chinese empires. You obviously have a lack of understanding and knowledge. If I were to guess, BASED soley on your criticisms you must be in the American public school system.
    *please note, I am not attacking the American Education System, simply stating that he think the school system is failed and full of idiots, so based off his belief of the american school systems, he must go be part of that school system.


     
  4. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    No wonder. Chinese is up-down, not left/right.
     
  5. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    Anyways, it is pointless to argue with people who are not aware of history.
    We have a trillion-words hyperventilation above trying to prove that slaves built the pyramids & the great wall, when fact remains that discovered Chinese & Egyptian texts of the time such building WAS under progress clearly indicates the usage of 'sweatshop labour' and not slave labour with one document going far enough to do the economic tallying and SHOW how slave labor = more expensive.
    I said that the pyramids are/were built by slaves is largely Judeo-Christian propaganda due to obvious reasons.

    The rest is just nothing more than ' are you kidding me ? read a book!' type counter to facts and logical extrapolations so i will let it be.
     
  6. hoopsnerd

    hoopsnerd Prince

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    Wow... you two should really take care to articulate your points in a more educated fashion. I'd continue to debate but I'd rather not join in the "battle of the retards." I can't fathom how you expect anyone to take you seriously, if that's your goal.

    Bottom line - meatwad is partially right about slave labor being ubiquitous and worldwide, Ahimsadharma is partially right about the fact that you could never have a huge population of slaves amassed in one place or they would rebel on you in an instant -- especially if they were formerly enemy soldiers recently conquered. He's also right about the fact that paying an army to guard slaves is a lot more expensive than paying workers a ridiculously low wage -- you have to feed the slaves regardless and the wages paid would have been marginal when compared to the costs of feeding the workers, period. SOME slaves were used, no doubt, but the great wall and the pyramids were built my a "wage slave" majority and not a true "slave" one.
     
  7. IbnKhaldun

    IbnKhaldun Chieftain

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    Seconded! .....
     
  8. firebrace

    firebrace Chieftain

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    I can't believe only one person in this thread has gone for Elizabeth I.

    Mother Executed for adultery and treason. Branded a bastard by her father.

    The Elizabethan Era is often termed the Golden Age.

    She took over a country made bankrupt by HenryVIII, having lost most of its French provinces, and divided by religion. With next to no resources at the start of her reign, with a stack of debts, and besieged by French, Spanish, and the Holy Roman Empire, at the end of her reign the country was the richest in the world, literacy, art and culture boomed with Shakespeare, and Marlowe to name but two poet/playwrights.

    Her naval explorers, started an overseas expansion that formed the basis of the British Empire over the next 4 centuries, which was ultimately to become the largest Empire the world has ever had.

    New age of scientific thinking of the renaissance started and flourished with people such as Sir Francis Bacon.

    Defeated the Spanish Armada of 133 fighting ships with a navy of 34 ships and 160 armed merchant vessles.

    Effectively established the Anglian Church.

    Established the poor Laws - an early form of Social Security.
     
  9. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    Actually, nowhere close to being the richest country in the world ( which in Elizabethian era was China, followed by India). Elizabeth's reign coincided with Akbar the Great's reign in India- they came to power within a couple of years of each other and they both ruled for 40+ years ( IIRC, Akbar ruled for slightly longer than Liz I). Those were the days when the Portuguese were first making contact in India and by comparative analysis, when Elizabeth's reign ended, England was indeed one of the richest countries in Europe, having a treasury of over six million pounds ( a million in 1500s = more than several billions today) whereas Akbar collected tax per year in the range of 4-5 million in equivalent currency ( and Akbar was known as a very moderate taxer of the peasantry). And in Indian sources, it is mentioned that China collected 1.5x more money in taxes than Akbar did.
    Up until early 1800s, China was still the richest empire in the world and one of the most technologically developed (though remarkably under-developed in warfare tech.)

    But IMO, Elizabeth I loses a lot of ground because she was quite the barbarous lady when it came to beating down the populace. There were quite a few rebellions in her time and she persued a policy of religious discrimination and torture when crushing the rebellions, thus tarnishing her image significantly outside of strictly English realms.
     
  10. Knimoax

    Knimoax Chieftain

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    Moses, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Mao Zedong, Muhammed, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Benito Mussolini, Alexander The Great, Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler.

    All were able to speak to the people, touch their hearts. Some might seem out of place but they only done whats right by them.
     
  11. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    Opinions are just opinions after all heh...
     
  12. hoopsnerd

    hoopsnerd Prince

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    Since when did Jesus really exist?
     
  13. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    Go ask him.

    (readwhateveryoupleasefrommycomment)
     
  14. hoopsnerd

    hoopsnerd Prince

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    That doesn't make sense...
     
  15. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    Not for you! :crazyeye:
     
  16. hoopsnerd

    hoopsnerd Prince

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    Is it in of those things that I can only understand via exclusive membership to an assembly of folks who blindly believe unfounded mumbo-jumbo without any way of backing it up other than mutual delusion? :confused:
     
  17. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    No, that is the other one! I am not talking about mumbo-jumbo theories! It got be SANTA! Hellooo!
     
  18. meatwad4289

    meatwad4289 Prince

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    I'm sorry what? One since when did Jesus not exist? proof? How do we know Moses existed, how do we know Mohammad Existed? How do we know Buddah Existed? How do we know there is an existance, and we're not plugged into the matrix.. Well we don't know 100% but because it's Written in books, the stories in the bible have been proven to actually happen in history, so I'm going to go ahead and say, unless you can say no, he existed, I don't care if you worship Jesus or if you worship a pig porker(GIGIDY lol) You can't go around saying Jesus didn't exist, and then call an entire religion mumbo-jumbo. That just makes you look like an . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Religion played a key part in history, and in politics. It's one thing to attack politics and history, it's another to attack a religion, Because this is what people BELIEVE, and your saying no your wrong because guess what I'M RIGHT, there is no god there is no heaven, This religion is the only way, Convert or Die, How do you know the path you follow is the correct one? do you know 100% that your right? no. So why don't you back off. I'm not very religious, but I do believe in God, and consider my self a Christian but not a very good one, but If theres one thing I hate more than anything it's people attacking religion, I don't care what you worship or don't worship as long as you don't harm other people. Just because you don't accept a certain religion or religion in general doesn't make it right to attack people that do believe, what makes you better than them? What if their right? What if we are judged and are sent to heaven or hell, what if we are reincarnated? what if we're plugged into a matrix? what if we're sent back to start over? what if there is nothing but darkness? What's it matter to you.

    I do believe the person making the comment about Moses, Jesus, MLK Jr Hitler and other historical figures is right, they were all great speakers who convinced people to follow them with words.
     
  19. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    Good post meatwad4289. I personally don't take it serious anymore. Why should I? It is only a forum after all, and in the long run it is better just to ignore this kind of comment and/or make obscure jokes! :crazyeye:
    Better for your health!
     
  20. Ahimsadharma

    Ahimsadharma Warlord

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    Well said.

    Though i must say, having studied history, i am naturally wary of Abrahamic religions ( Abrahamic religions = religions that see Abraham in common view and are essentially the same, with minor differences- Judaism, Christianity & Islam).
    Perhaps it is because of my upbringing ( secular hindu upbringing, though i lean towards buddhism these days and its perfectly cool with my family) but i cannot help but notice that Abrahamic faiths have killed insanely more people in the name of their God than all other religions combined.
    In history of Abrahamic religion ( both written history & legends), there is one mass genocide after another, one mass killing spree after another to spread God's word/protect God's people/save world from infidels.
    There's the genocide of Caanan, mass genocides in Europe by early Roman Christians, mass genocide & warfare of Crusader era, mass genocide of India(by muslims), utter annihilation of Persia & central Asia by Tamerlane & Nadir Shah, etc etc etc.
    While in the non-abrahamic side, there is like zero religious warfare amongst Romans & Greeks, two or three mentions of religious warfare in ancient Egypt(though much more limited in an internal-power struggle scenario), there is a grand total of zero Jains, Zoroastrians,Bahai and Sikhs going bloodthirsty in the name of God. There is once instance of Buddhists opressing on religious basis ( small kindgom, ancient southern india), one instance of Daoists & Confucians killing in name of religion and three instances of Hindus(one mythological, two historical) killing people/waging war in name of God. Most of these religions are hundreds, if not thousands of years older than Abrahamic religions, yet none of them come even remotely close to Abrahamic religions for pure butchery.
    I dunno just what exactly it is about Abrahamic religions that make them so much more bloodthirsty than other religions/philosophies but i agree with the point of not viewing a christian/muslim/jew as more malevolent just because of history(people afterall are individuals).
    But i cannot help but be wary of the Abrahamic schools of religion simply because of their markedly gorier history than any other extant religion. The only religion of mankind (ever practiced) that i know of to be bloodier is the Aztec religion, where hundreds/thousands of people were summarily sacrified ever so often- but even the Aztec religion pales into insignificance in comparison to Abrahamism, because it was afterall the religion of only one kingdom and that too, not a very big or populous one.
     

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