Who are the best leaders

[Peng Qi]

Ait's well known that Gore actually won the Majority by a small margin yet Bush won because he won more states

Fixed that sentence for you.

As for the Senate/House you don't have as much say in electing these guys as you think, the guy that wins is usually the one with the most Air time and the best ads

Sorry, that's how democracy works. If you don't like it, then you don't like democracy.

You ever wondered why people in the United States of America are some of the most Patriotic people in the world? Your taught to be that way in school, its called nationalism/fascism and there is a reason for it, it's not just to have pride in your country.

Nonsense. Being an American and having gone through American schools, I can actually tell you from personal experience that the exact opposite is true. Our schools, especially in the north, seem devoted to trying to villify the United States in every way possible at every point in history. Also, equating nationalism with fascism is something only a person with very little political knowledge would do.

Because there is so much Patriotism when the United States does something bad or something it shouldn't even if its on to its own people what happens? The people defend the country, no matter what.+

So how do you explain that about half of the country doesn't support it right now?

If they start torturing people, Americans defend it as necessary.

How would you know? We never started torturing people.

If they start kidnapping people, Americans defend it as necessary.

Also never happened.

If they start holding people without trial, Americans defend it as necessary.

Only about half of Americans are defending that as necessary.

If they start ease dropping on Americans phone calls, Americans defend it as necessary.

Once again, not all Americans do.

If they pass the Patriot Act without even reading it, Americans defend it as necessary.

The only people who claim not to have read it are Democrats who are backtracking to save face.

If America overthrows a Democraticly Electected Government and installs a Regime/Dictator that is loyal to the United States, Americans defend it as necessary.

That hasn't happened in a long time. I don't think we'd defend it if it was done again.

If they start using mercenaries in wars and even domesticly during Katrina, Americans defend it as necessary.

What's wrong with mercenaries?

... If the CIA helps narco-terrorists (Rebel Fighters) that are fighting one of the Regimes they don't like fly cocaine into Los Angeles, Americans.. look the other way

What?

 

[Ahimsadharma]

We never started torturing people.

No, America just nuke cities for no reason ( Hiroshima & Nagasaki- Trueman ordered nukage despite categoric advice against it from the Military commanders, who were far more qualified than Trueman to determine the necessity of using the nuclear alternative) and massacre cities indiscriminately like no other ( Dresden massacre) just for a show of power.

That US doesnt resort to torture is also categorically false given copious instances of US-led torture procedures in Vietnam. And i should warn you on arguing with me on this one- i am personally familiar with several Vietnam Veterans. Pretty tough to argue that US doesnt use torture when they themselves say they carried out torture on the orders of the US military superiors.

Also never happened.

Likewise, false.

That hasn't happened in a long time.

20-25 years may seem a long time to you but i assure you, it is still very much 'recent and current world affairs' in terms of historical perspective.
20 years is not even a lifetime.

I don't think we'd defend it if it was done again.

Support of a puppet-government it set up in the first place ( eg: Saudi Arabia and much of the gulf countries) is proof enough that it is defending 'it' right now.

What's wrong with mercenaries?

Why don't you ask the Nicaraguans, who were butchered to high heavens by these American 'mercenaries' and America categorically lied until it was categorically exposed ?

What?

It is a categorically proven fact that CIA helped set up the Colombian and Mexican drug cartels in the first place.
Categoric proof exists that CIA in the 1960s and 70s brought in massive amounts of cocaine and heroin into the US and give it at deflated prices to many people of the black community ( specifically the black panthers) to get then involved in drug trade and thus diffuse their civic zeal with drug abuse.

 

[Defiance]

Secret Prisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

Torture/Kidnapping: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

CIA Cocaine Smuggling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contra's_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

Also. Gore had 600,000 more votes then Bush, it was only a "small margin" in florida, which is where bush disavowed tens of thousands of voters mostly minorities to cause florida to tip in his favor, if he hadn't done that gore would of won florida also.

If you don't like those links or find wikipedia a joke I encourage you to do some of your "own" research and find sites that you find credible.


Smart guy that Ahimsadharma

 

[meatwad4289]

wow read some posts.... didnt bother collectin quotes as usual...

It really depends on whether or not you can judge who is a good leader or not by how the people approve of them. Nixon did a lot more for this country than he's credited for, and he was a great leader, but alot of people hate him. Adolph Hitler was a great leader of his people, HE turned Germany Around, and if he had kept going Germany would not of become a downtrotten bankrupt nation again. Stalin was a great leader because he ruled by fear, he established Absolute Power, which becomes increasingly harder to do every day. There is no exact measure for greatness of leaders, because So many leaders have done great things for or with their country, so even the most evil men can be great. Hitler almost succeeded in doing the unthinkable by taking Europe, Stalin built Russia into a Super Power. These are great achievements, even though the ends were not worth the means.

Regarding America,

America is a Democratic Republic. This means We allow all people to vote, and then they are represented. For electing President, we elect the Electoral College, this means if the Candidate B wins in County 1,2,3, and 5 and Candidtate A wins in 4 and 6, then Candidate B wins the States electoral college. When the President wins, his second term, he is considered a lame duck, he doesn't have any need to do anything in his second term because he can no longer run for a 3rd. In The Confederate States of America, they figured they would give a President one 6year term and that would be all. Ofcourse this would mean there is a chance for 6 years that a president would be a lame duck rather than chance of having 4 year lame duck in the United States. I prefer the two term system. But thats just how I feel about it.
However, according to the post, it seems you believe there is an Imperial Presidency, there is not. The President must run most things by Congress before he can do it. This means wars, laws, and treaties. The Presidents power had been severely reduced in the past 50 years.

I don't believe you understand how Democracy or Republic works, I suggest taking a Government class.

As for electing senators and representatives, I've yet to see a Commercial for my senators, and the only commercial I seen for the represenative woman for my area was an attack ad. It is not about campaign money or ads, Yes they do help, but they don't win an election. In my state, last year we had reelected our governor, despite the fact that her opponent spent more money, actually had plans to dig us out of the hole she dug, she still won. Why IDK. People vote for who they want to vote for, not because an AD says "VOTE FOR THIS GUY" The Ads are suppose to get people motivated to look into the candidate, but so many flip flop now that theyd rather say Vote for me, and ignore the fact that I have stock in a company that foreclosed homes on Katrina victims and I'll criticize that company.

To say the United States of America is brainwashed, is kinda false. When I grew up we learned American History and holidays first because We live in America, Therefore our priority is AMERICA. But I liked Italy, Britian and Japan more than America, as a matter of fact when I was little all I would talk about was other countries, now I love America, and I don't believe I'd want to live in another country, thats because I've learned to accept that we did great things and we did terrible things, MOVE AHEAD! I wouldnt mind going to other nations but America will be my home. I know if I was born and raised in England, France, Germany or any other country I would say the same about that country. It's hardly fascism to teach children about the countries History, and Heritage. Do you know what fascism is? lol

People in America do not defend the country no matter what. WTF are you talking about. Are you American? If you are then did you move out of the States? if You arent then what the hell Business do you have saying what Americans believe and don't believe, Unless you've gone to each and every house in america and checked, then I doubt you know.

Honestly though, Highschools usually offer a course in basic Government classes. Try taking one, you'll understand what a Democracy is, what a Republic is, what Fascism is, what Socialism is, you'll get the basics of all the governments, because you really need it. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying, based off your post, I don't believe you took a Government class, once you reach high school it would be a good thing to do.


600,000 Votes is not really alot of votes. And Bush won the second time around so that should of put an end to the "America didn't want him" BS going on. Plus it's too late so SYB.


Wikipedia is not a Source... Don't use it as such.


for Peng Q. You're right they always tried to make the United States the Villian, and the only time I ever seen it differently was Civil war when all the Trash of the world was talked about the south, and then you'd have teachers teach that the South was and still is Racist and everyone it is is the same, and when you raise you hand and say "My grandma's not racist and she lives in the south" you'd get yelled at. lol. Other than that, through out Elementary schools US bad guy kills Native Americans, US was first to enslave people, and all the negative talk, right along side the "Yankie doodle dandy" You know in most schools they do not do the pledge of Allegiance any more, I find that a shame.

 

[Peng Qi]

No, America just nuke cities for no reason ( Hiroshima & Nagasaki- Trueman ordered nukage despite categoric advice against it from the Military commanders, who were far more qualified than Trueman to determine the necessity of using the nuclear alternative) and massacre cities indiscriminately like no other ( Dresden massacre) just for a show of power.

Nukes aren't torture. And you know Britain led the Dresden bombing, right? Furthermore, lots of commanders advised in favor of dropping the nukes, too, but once again anti-American people like to ignore all of the facts that speak out against them.

That US doesnt resort to torture is also categorically false given copious instances of US-led torture procedures in Vietnam. And i should warn you on arguing with me on this one- i am personally familiar with several Vietnam Veterans. Pretty tough to argue that US doesnt use torture when they themselves say they carried out torture on the orders of the US military superiors.

The US doesn't torture. Some United States soldiers have tortured, but it was never with the sanction of the United States government.

20-25 years may seem a long time to you but i assure you, it is still very much 'recent and current world affairs' in terms of historical perspective.
20 years is not even a lifetime.

Doesn't change the fact that the Americans of today probably would not defend such activity.

Support of a puppet-government it set up in the first place ( eg: Saudi Arabia and much of the gulf countries) is proof enough that it is defending 'it' right now.

Saudi Arabia is not a puppet government, it's just not government by the people.

Why don't you ask the Nicaraguans, who were butchered to high heavens by these American 'mercenaries' and America categorically lied until it was categorically exposed ?

Proof please.

It is a categorically proven fact that CIA helped set up the Colombian and Mexican drug cartels in the first place.
Categoric proof exists that CIA in the 1960s and 70s brought in massive amounts of cocaine and heroin into the US and give it at deflated prices to many people of the black community ( specifically the black panthers) to get then involved in drug trade and thus diffuse their civic zeal with drug abuse.

That's never been "categorically proven" to anyone other than insane conspiracy theorists.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

To say the United States of America is brainwashed, is kinda false.

And your basis for saying this is ?!?
Atleast i can claim to be a neutral foreign observer, having tasted several different nations and cultures. However, if you are an American who's hardly lived outside of the US, you have no basis on claiming this.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

And you know Britain led the Dresden bombing, right?

Care to tell me how many USAF planes and how many RAF planes led the charge ? You will find that America did most of the genociding in Dresden.

Furthermore, lots of commanders advised in favor of dropping the nukes, too, but once again anti-American people like to ignore all of the facts that speak out against them.

I am giving you one last chance to withdraw this falsehood, because if you don't i will be forced to quote you (now declassified) minutes from the Pentagon where all but ONE General/thinktank voted alongside Trueman for using the nuke. As i said, Trueman used the nuke against the overwhelming military advice- McArthur is on public record stating the obvious.

Some United States soldiers have tortured, but it was never with the sanction of the United States government.

False.
US likes to hang out its exposed torturers to dry when exposed but fact is, US engages in extensive torture procedures and has for the last 40 years. The incidents are too numerous and too organized to be anything but Pentagon directive.

Doesn't change the fact that the Americans of today probably would not defend such activity.

All precident is against this comment, so i will say you are simply speaking out of your rear end.
America is good at pretending to be something it is not.

Saudi Arabia is not a puppet government, it's just not government by the people.

Mate, i've lived a stone's throw away from Saudi Arabia for a while, so don't lecture me on this topic. Saudi Royal family depends on American weapons sales, American diplomatic support and CIA intelligence reports to stay in power, since they are NOT liked by their public. It meets every definition of the phrase 'puppet government'.

Proof please.

Type 'CONTRA' in wiki. Read up. Those were the 'Yankee funded,backed and trained' rebels that went around genociding whole villages. The half-dead Raegan openly denied it in 85, only to be proven wrong by video footage from BBC in 86 & 87. As usual, US is a good liar.

That's never been "categorically proven" to anyone other than insane conspiracy theorists.

Considering that CBC ran a program on CIA's set-up and expansion of the drug-trade just 2 months ago on national tv, backed by commentary and supportive interviews from ex-CIA agents and even one ex-CIA director, i think you are again speaking out of your rear-end as an instictive response out of sheer blind patriotism.
Unlike the rag-tag US media, CBC is actually highly rated and acclaimed in the international community.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

These are great achievements, even though the ends were not worth the means.

This line alone sums up the inconsistency and illogic of your post.
If ends were not worth the means, then those were not great achievements, since these 'achievements' are the very 'ends' you are saying that is not justified by the 'means'.

As per taking course in polsci, if you wish to debate the finer points of a democracy, dictatorship,communism,socialism,fascism, monarchy, plutocracy etc, you are welcome to do so. You will find that not many are ignorant on this topic as you presume.

You're right they always tried to make the United States the Villian

It is not exactly a villain but US people and its media has a tendency to thump its chest as 'bastion of freedom, bestest place on the planet, #1 country in the world, etc', which is just pure propaganda and far from truth.
Having travelled extensively through most of Europe and North America, having lived in Canada for 10+ years ( btw, i came to Canada, was not born Canadian, so your Canuck jokes have zero effect on me),i've come to the conclusion that US is far more hype than reality and a middle-rung western nation just good at thumping its own chest.
Give me Canada, France, Holland, Germany, Japan, Korea, UAE, Denmark, Norway and Sweden ( and yes, i've travelled/lived in all but the last two lands mentioned here, so i think if you wish to challenge my opinion, atleast claim similar travelling experience) any day of the week over the US of A.

 

[Peng Qi]

Care to tell me how many USAF planes and how many RAF planes led the charge ? You will find that America did most of the genociding in Dresden.

Irrelevant. It was an RAF mission. We just provided planes.

I am giving you one last chance to withdraw this falsehood, because if you don't i will be forced to quote you (now declassified) minutes from the Pentagon where all but ONE General/thinktank voted alongside Trueman for using the nuke. As i said, Trueman used the nuke against the overwhelming military advice- McArthur is on public record stating the obvious.

Go ahead, quote all you want. It won't change the fact that the closer a commander was to the soldiers who were fighting and dying every day, the more in favor that commander was of dropping the nuke.

False.
US likes to hang out its exposed torturers to dry when exposed but fact is, US engages in extensive torture procedures and has for the last 40 years. The incidents are too numerous and too organized to be anything but Pentagon directive.

Conspiratorial nonsense. Human nature causes torture; you don't need to organize it with a central nexus.

Mate, i've lived a stone's throw away from Saudi Arabia for a while, so don't lecture me on this topic. Saudi Royal family depends on American weapons sales, American diplomatic support and CIA intelligence reports to stay in power, since they are NOT liked by their public. It meets every definition of the phrase 'puppet government'.

So any government that buys weapons from another government is a "puppet" now?

Type 'CONTRA' in wiki. Read up. Those were the 'Yankee funded,backed and trained' rebels that went around genociding whole villages. The half-dead Raegan openly denied it in 85, only to be proven wrong by video footage from BBC in 86 & 87. As usual, US is a good liar.

I see a lot of Iran Contra, nothing credible about what you're talking about, though. Yankee funded, backed and trained rebels are not mercenaries, by the way. Sure, we may have funded insurgents, but where's the proof of this America-backed slaughter? By the way, killing a village isn't "genocide." You need to kill people based on race for it to be genocide. Also, wiki isn't a reliable source.

Considering that CBC ran a program on CIA's set-up and expansion of the drug-trade just 2 months ago on national tv, backed by commentary and supportive interviews from ex-CIA agents and even one ex-CIA director, i think you are again speaking out of your rear-end as an instictive response out of sheer blind patriotism.

Oh no, not the most anti-American news network in the Western Hemisphere! The CBC is one of the least reliable news organizations in the world. Their own viewership is dropping like flies ever since Fox News started being broadcast in Canada.

Unlike the rag-tag US media, CBC is actually highly rated and acclaimed in the international community.

Haha, maybe by the America-hating international community. Maybe you should consider getting your news from multiple sources instead of putting all of your eggs in one anti-American basket. Where's the BBC's report on the same stuff?

 

[Ahimsadharma]

It was an RAF mission. We just provided planes.

And the pilots.And the consent form the highest authorities (thereby making US the collaborator and thus equally guilty- since US forces made up most of the Dresden attack, it is far more US culpability than UK). Even the Germans see Dresden massacre as a US act predominantly, not a British one. And since they were dead-set against the Allies to begin with, they had zero reasons to vilify US and cover-up UK's part of the blame.

It won't change the fact that the closer a commander was to the soldiers who were fighting and dying every day, the more in favor that commander was of dropping the nuke.

You are incorrect. As i said, ALL levels of the military thought nuking was not required, since Japan was close to surrendering anyways. And i think most people will find McArthur's comment ( AND minutes from Pentagon discussion) that shows most joint chiefs to be against nuking more credible than your patriotism. And fact remains that there are no better qualified authoirtes than the top level of military to deciede the war strategy- 'closer' guys to the combat does not deciede (neither are they in any credible position to) where the war is going to be, what the objective is, etc etc.
And contrary to US propaganda, the nukes did not result in Japan's surrender either. Japan's surrender was caused by USSR declaring war on Japan right after the nukes were dropped and rail-roading half a million soldiers into Manchuria, the only overseas holding of Japan at that stage and the only source of coal & iron for Japan. Infact, intercepted communiques in Japanese Army itself shows that USSR's declaration of war was the major reason Japan surrendered.
Trueman dropped the nukes as pure vengeance for Pearl Harbour and the only one who spoke out against Trueman's barbarity publicly was McArthur- and he paid for it dearly when he spoke his mind again in Korean war.

So any government that buys weapons from another government is a "puppet" now?

No, but US does far more than that- it sells Saudi its almost entire military(thus making Saudi a total puppet regime,since no independent govt. buys arms from just ONE supplier), it maintains one of the biggest forces in Saudi to oversee its control of Saudi and the Saudi king is on record saying that CIA keeps anti-monarchy elements at bay in Saudi. All this while people of Saudi arabia mostly hate their govt.
If that is not a puppet regime, i dunno what is.

I see a lot of Iran Contra, nothing credible about what you're talking about, though

perhaps you do not see any credibility is because your sources are incorrect/you do not have the necessary knowledge. For example, you blithly say Iran Contra. Contra had nothing to do with Iran. It was a purely Latin American venture by the US unleashing terrorists on an elected government simply because people chose to elect a socialist government.

Yankee funded, backed and trained rebels are not mercenaries, by the way.

Ofcourse it makes them mercenaries. They are fighting for the cash that US dangles in front of them. Fighting for cash against popular opinion in the country = mercenaries at best, terrorists at worst. I am being generous here by calling them mercenaries and not terrorists.

Sure, we may have funded insurgents, but where's the proof of this America-backed slaughter?

Again, BBC in the 80s proved that CONTRA genocidal operations were known to its overlord ( US) atleast two years before the report broke, yet the US made no attempt to reign in the CONTRA or even admit that the CONTRA were causing genocide (the US flatly denied the claim, at that time supported by Mexico & France).

By the way, killing a village isn't "genocide." You need to kill people based on race for it to be genocide.

False. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'genocide' in a dictionary. You will find that it is NOT a concept tied exclusively to race. And what the US backed CONTRA did is most definitely genocide.

Also, wiki isn't a reliable source.

Their article on CONTRA is top-notch. And if you arn't satisfied with Wiki, just google it and follow the numerous credible reportings from NGOs, universities, etc. where it is categorically established that the US funded, armed, trained and gave information to the CONTRA rebels even when it knew that CONTRA were committing genocide. And it backed the rebel against a democratically elected government that EU reported was elected under fair elections.

Oh no, not the most anti-American news network in the Western Hemisphere!

Or rather, the most objective one in Anglosphere.

The CBC is one of the least reliable news organizations in the world.

False. CBC is routinely rated in the journalism world as the most reliable news network in North America. But i realize American propaganda against CBC simply because CBC is fairly good at exposing America's barbarous government/foreign policy.
It was also CBC that revealed the Tuskagee experiments to the world, for which Bill Clinton was officially forced to apologize for. ( where US govt. deliberately used black people as live guinea pigs without their knowledge, infecting them with Syphilis and telling them they had the flu or a urinary tract infection. continued this for 3 decades- no other western nation has done this kind of experimentation on its own people save Nazi Germany).

Their own viewership is dropping like flies ever since Fox News started being broadcast in Canada.

False. And Fox is the worst piece of journalism i've ever witnessed- i found the indegenous news network, a zillionth the size of Fox network in Bahrain to have higher quality programming.
Any channel that hosts Bill O'Reiley as a newscast should really be ashamed of even calling itself a news service.
Fox is popular amongst hardcore christians due to its hardcore christian propaganda. Same in Canada as well as US.It may burn you to hear this, but i rate Al Jazeera's journalistic integrity higher than US media's. And no, I am neither a muslim, nor an arab, i have no whatsoever reason to be biassed against the US- i just call it as it is. US's only plus point over the rest-of-the-first-world-nations in my book is that its got a very good post-graduate and research program in its Universities. Thats about it really. But i expect your indignation at this,since afterall, you are American and it is natural for you to be biassed towards it ( however, do not make the typical american mistake of thinking that the opposite is true- that if you arn't american, its natural to be biassed against it. Unlike America's two-state binary concept of foreign policy - the 'with us or against us' nonsense, most cultures have a 'third state', known as 'neutral/indifferent')

Haha, maybe by the America-hating international community.

Err, no, by the world bodies of journalism, which are the benchmark for journalistic evaluation. Journalists worldwide rate CBC higher than any US news network on average ( the highest rated US network is usually either CNN or NBC).

Maybe you should consider getting your news from multiple sources instead of putting all of your eggs in one anti-American basket.

I do. I follow BBC, CBC, Sky, IBN and Khaleej Times fairly regularly. Maybe you should just see the facts for what it is - US is hardly a nation worthy of its own billing and to be honest, not much better than Soviet Russia in most aspects. Its just got a very strong PR team, thats all.

Where's the BBC's report on the same stuff?

These were special documentaries, not regular news-reporting. As such, these programs are not replicated by other news networks ( since its intellectual piracy) but they are free to show it if they wish- and BBC did cover this exact same documentary not much later than CBC carried it.

 

[Ravellion]

so for example, hitler/napoleon pretty much suck - they didn't add anything to their nation or world affairs. (although napoleon actually made the french win battles - who would have thought)

Apparently, you know very little about the political developments in 19th century Europe, and how Napoleon actually affected his occupied territories.

But then, I suppose not even my own countrymen know what an impact Napoleon had on their country, and perhaps ours was most severely affected of all conquered regions.

 

[Peng Qi]

And the pilots.And the consent form the highest authorities (thereby making US the collaborator and thus equally guilty- since US forces made up most of the Dresden attack, it is far more US culpability than UK). Even the Germans see Dresden massacre as a US act predominantly, not a British one. And since they were dead-set against the Allies to begin with, they had zero reasons to vilify US and cover-up UK's part of the blame.

Of course anyone who hates America would blame America for it.

You are incorrect. As i said, ALL levels of the military thought nuking was not required, since Japan was close to surrendering anyways.

This is a gross level of misunderstanding of the situation on the ground in World War II. Anyone with even an iota of real military history knowledge will know just how grossly misinformed you are on this point. Everything you said there is pretty much the opposite of what is true.

No, but US does far more than that- it sells Saudi its almost entire military(thus making Saudi a total puppet regime,since no independent govt. buys arms from just ONE supplier)

That's because our weapons are better than everyone else's, not because Saudi Arabia is a puppet.

it maintains one of the biggest forces in Saudi to oversee its control of Saudi and the Saudi king is on record saying that CIA keeps anti-monarchy elements at bay in Saudi. All this while people of Saudi arabia mostly hate their govt.

That's called "being allies," not "being a puppet."

perhaps you do not see any credibility is because your sources are incorrect/you do not have the necessary knowledge. For example, you blithly say Iran Contra. Contra had nothing to do with Iran.

Once again you reveal a gross lack of understanding or knowledge of history: The Iran-Contra Affair.

Ofcourse it makes them mercenaries. They are fighting for the cash that US dangles in front of them. Fighting for cash against popular opinion in the country = mercenaries at best, terrorists at worst. I am being generous here by calling them mercenaries and not terrorists.

No, they're not fighting for cash; they would have fought anyway, we just decided we supported their cause and chose to give them cash. Mercenaries wouldn't have fought in the first place.

Again, BBC in the 80s proved that CONTRA genocidal operations were known to its overlord ( US) atleast two years before the report broke, yet the US made no attempt to reign in the CONTRA or even admit that the CONTRA were causing genocide (the US flatly denied the claim, at that time supported by Mexico & France).

Once again, prove it. Link me to somewhere other than Wikipedia that supports this statement.

Their article on CONTRA is top-notch. And if you arn't satisfied with Wiki, just google it and follow the numerous credible reportings from NGOs, universities, etc. where it is categorically established that the US funded, armed, trained and gave information to the CONTRA rebels even when it knew that CONTRA were committing genocide. And it backed the rebel against a democratically elected government that EU reported was elected under fair elections.

Irrelevant. Democracy isn't inherently good. The Nazis elected Hitler, after all. Anyway, it's not my responsibility to prove your argument for you. You can find me a credible source. If you don't, I'm just going to dismiss what you're saying as nonsense.

False. And Fox is the worst piece of journalism i've ever witnessed- i found the indegenous news network, a zillionth the size of Fox network in Bahrain to have higher quality programming.

Fox is absolutely the best journalism I've ever seen. They actually provide multiple sides of the same story instead of just the one their corporate (or in the case of the CBC, political) overlords want you to hear. Anyway, it's hard to find television ratings figures online apparently, so I'll withdraw this point until I can find some (not that I'm conceding the point; you have no proof either).

These were special documentaries, not regular news-reporting.

Aha, so they weren't factual enough to be presented as news.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

Of course anyone who hates America would blame America for it.

When Dresden happened, Germany hated America and Britain BOTH EQUALLY, given that BOTH were fighting WWII against it ( and if you wanna thump your chest that Germans hated yanks more because yanks had military, it'd still be false. Germans hated the Soviets far more - the Nazi party was very anti-communist to begin with, plus the Russia essentially beat Germany in WWII, given that eastern front was 5 times larger than the western front in all aspects).

So Germans at that period in history have very little reason to forget the Brits and lay all blame to America.
It simply doesn't add up.

Everything you said there is pretty much the opposite of what is true.

Or rather, opposite of what you are taught in your American highschool texts.
I've been educated in several nations (yes, my family moved around a lot) and all history there is similar to its commentary of America on this aspect.

That's called "being allies," not "being a puppet."

Err no, UK and USA are allies. Saudi is a puppet, given that US hardware, US military presence and CIA services is what holds together the Saudi despotism.

That's because our weapons are better than everyone else's, not because Saudi Arabia is a puppet.

Hardly. And even if it were, nobody-not even Canada or any NATO nation buys US hardware exclusively, because it gives US a tremendous amount of control over your govt. if its entire military is American, hence reducing you to a status of puppet.

Once again you reveal a gross lack of understanding or knowledge of history: The Iran-Contra Affair.

Err no, you are now simply arguing for the sake of it- the link says the same thing i did - that Contra was in central America, not Iran. I put that comment down to poor communication between you and me in phrasing that part.

Once again, prove it. Link me to somewhere other than Wikipedia that supports this statement.

Why ? You are displaying double standards here- you use wikipedia when it suits you and reject it when it does not ? Sorry but its laughably rigged argument you have there.
Anyways, i am sure you are adept at searching the BBC site for more info.

You can find me a credible source. If you don't, I'm just going to dismiss what you're saying as nonsense.

CBC, Wikipedia and there even was a UCLA journal on this few years ago that i will take some time to dig up(if required).
Look, even Kissinger admitted on HardTalk that the Raegan administration knew of the genocide but kept quite because they wanted to irradicate socialism/communism in the Americas at all cost.

Fox is absolutely the best journalism I've ever seen.

I am yet to meet a non-christian or a non-american who thinks that, really.

They actually provide multiple sides of the same story instead of just the one their corporate (or in the case of the CBC, political) overlords want you to hear.

But most, if not ALL their sources are questionable.

not that I'm conceding the point; you have no proof either

My proof is my experience. I find it interesting that you wish to debate how credible the world media percieves American media to be with someone who's lived in multiple countries and followed stories from multiple perspectives instead of you, who is the American and American perspective only.
Simply speaking, you do not have the experience of multiple national leanings and perspectives to form a balanced opinion here and you are exposed to very much one side of the story. As i said, any news network that can host virulently racist & bigoted presenters/analysts like Anne Coulter, Bill O'Reiley etc. don't deserve to be taken seriously.
Perhaps you need to spend a few years outside America to realize what America is from the outside. Afterall, the only other developed nation to use its own citizens as labrats for biological experiments is the US of A, not even USSR stooped that low. Says a lot, doesn't it ?

Aha, so they weren't factual enough to be presented as news.

Err no, all factual documentaries carry a factual tag with it if it is so.
News is for current/latest developments, you don't just cover 20 year old news (20 yrs old because of US classification of the matter during that period) in your news-hour broadcast.

 

[Peng Qi]

Or rather, opposite of what you are taught in your American highschool texts.
I've been educated in several nations (yes, my family moved around a lot) and all history there is similar to its commentary of America on this aspect.

Opposite of what every single piece of credible evidence I have ever heard, from texts, from experts, and from non-school books. I may not have learned from the institutions of several nations, but I have read books by authors from several nations and all of the evidence I have seen says that the Emperor wanted to surrender but his generals did not and were holding him prisoner in the palace, that multiple coups were attempted against any military people who did not want to keep fighting, and that most non-top tier American commanders were in favor of dropping the bomb.

Err no, UK and USA are allies. Saudi is a puppet, given that US hardware, US military presence and CIA services is what holds together the Saudi despotism.

We're allies with that despotism. That means we help them when they have difficulty, even against people trying to overthrow them.

Hardly. And even if it were, nobody-not even Canada or any NATO nation buys US hardware exclusively, because it gives US a tremendous amount of control over your govt. if its entire military is American, hence reducing you to a status of puppet.

Israel buys US hardware almost exclusively and they aren't a puppet. What little hardware Japan has is mostly American. Basically, anyone who can afford new jets and tanks buys American. Iran buys mostly from Russia and China...are they a puppet?

Err no, you are now simply arguing for the sake of it- the link says the same thing i did - that Contra was in central America, not Iran. I put that comment down to poor communication between you and me in phrasing that part.

I concur, although I think it was my fault as I was rather tired while I was discussing this earlier.

Why ? You are displaying double standards here- you use wikipedia when it suits you and reject it when it does not ? Sorry but its laughably rigged argument you have there.

I didn't use it as proof that something happened, I just used it to try to clarify what I was talking about.

CBC, Wikipedia and there even was a UCLA journal on this few years ago that i will take some time to dig up(if required).
Look, even Kissinger admitted on HardTalk that the Raegan administration knew of the genocide but kept quite because they wanted to irradicate socialism/communism in the Americas at all cost.

I know that the events happened, I just don't see enough evidence to believe that Reagen knew about atrocities going on.

I am yet to meet a non-christian or a non-american who thinks that, really.

I know a lot of Canadians who think that, but I don't know a lot of non-North Americans. I am non-Christian, by the way.

But most, if not ALL their sources are questionable.

All sources are questionable outside of video proof, and even that is becoming simple enough to manufacture.

My proof is my experience. I find it interesting that you wish to debate how credible the world media percieves American media to be with someone who's lived in multiple countries and followed stories from multiple perspectives instead of you, who is the American and American perspective only.

I don't dispute that a lot of the world thinks that Fox News is propaganda, I just disagree with them and don't think they have enough evidence to make the claims they're making. I do have a more global perspective than most Americans, I just don't believe a lot of what I hear without substantial proof. That's what being a conservative is all about.

Simply speaking, you do not have the experience of multiple national leanings and perspectives to form a balanced opinion here and you are exposed to very much one side of the story.

I can read, and therefore have access to as many perspectives as you do. I just look at the same information and come to a different conclusion.

As i said, any news network that can host virulently racist & bigoted presenters/analysts like Anne Coulter, Bill O'Reiley etc. don't deserve to be taken seriously.

OK, I seriously don't understand why anyone doesn't realize that Ann Coulter is a comedian, and half of the things she says are just to be funny. Bill O'Reilly is most certainly not racist or bigoted; most of the sound bites of him on the internet take things he said completely out of context. You should actually watch his show for a while. He is a very angry person, but he is not racist or a bigot.

Perhaps you need to spend a few years outside America to realize what America is from the outside. Afterall, the only other developed nation to use its own citizens as labrats for biological experiments is the US of A, not even USSR stooped that low. Says a lot, doesn't it ?

Care to clarify when this happened?

Err no, all factual documentaries carry a factual tag with it if it is so.
News is for current/latest developments, you don't just cover 20 year old news (20 yrs old because of US classification of the matter during that period) in your news-hour broadcast.

So one documentary on one news station that has a history of running anti-American programs and stories is proof enough for you?

 

[dante alighieri]

Fixed that sentence for you.
Sorry, that's how democracy works. If you don't like it, then you don't like democracy.
Nonsense. Being an American and having gone through American schools, I can actually tell you from personal experience that the exact opposite is true. Our schools, especially in the north, seem devoted to trying to villify the United States in every way possible at every point in history. Also, equating nationalism with fascism is something only a person with very little political knowledge would do.
So how do you explain that about half of the country doesn't support it right now?
How would you know? We never started torturing people.
Also never happened.
Only about half of Americans are defending that as necessary.
Once again, not all Americans do.
The only people who claim not to have read it are Democrats who are backtracking to save face.
That hasn't happened in a long time. I don't think we'd defend it if it was done again.
What's wrong with mercenaries?
What?

Never argue with a crackpot, Peng.....

 

[Peng Qi]

Never argue with a crackpot, Pen....

I don't think he's a crackpot, I just think he's been the victim of propaganda. Of course, he thinks I'm the victim of propaganda, and therein lies the problem.

 

[meatwad4289]

And your basis for saying this is ?!?
Atleast i can claim to be a neutral foreign observer, having tasted several different nations and cultures. However, if you are an American who's hardly lived outside of the US, you have no basis on claiming this.

LMAO Well then as a Nuetral Foriegn observer, The Public Schools in Canada BRAIN WASH YOU, the public Schools in England BRAIN WASH you, The public Schools in France BRAIN WASH YOU, the Public Schools in Russia BRAINWASH YOU. First and formost, If you're just watching Movies about America, or even the news about America, then You can not claim to be a neutral Observer. You can't say America is brainwashed unless you goto the school and conduct research, Then you msut compare your research on American Schools, with Schools from other countries to see if the United States Brainwashes more. Lets face it all Education is brainwash, You teach people what you want them to know, But to say the United States Brain washes more? I'm highly doubtful. Every School system has a biased towards the people funding them, this means American School Systems like America, British School Systems like Britain, Iran School Systems like Iran, Catholic School systems Like Christianity. And so on.

This line alone sums up the inconsistency and illogic of your post.
If ends were not worth the means, then those were not great achievements, since these 'achievements' are the very 'ends' you are saying that is not justified by the 'means'.

So Building the Pyramids was a GREAT Acheive ment, Was it worth it? No, Thousands upon thousands of Slaves died during production. The Great Wall of China was a Great Achievement, but was it worth it? thousands and thousands of Chinese slaves died building it. Panama Canal Was a GREAT ACHIEVEMENT but was it worth it? Thousands of men ended up with Malaria. Alot of Great things had been done, but, at what cost? Now you can do Great Things that are good or Great thigns that are Evil, and still the Cost might not be worth it. Think about it like this, if you have any knowledge on American History, the 1960's, Martin Luther King Jr wanted equality of Races, He was assasinated, and that Woke America up. We are now for the most part equal. That was a Great Achievement, but was it worth the cost? Could he of just lived a few more years and still get his goal?

As per taking course in polsci, if you wish to debate the finer points of a democracy, dictatorship,communism,socialism,fascism, monarchy, plutocracy etc, you are welcome to do so. You will find that not many are ignorant on this topic as you presume.

Anyone who Confuses Democracy with Republic, doesn't understand what Fascism is and yet still calls a nation Fascist, I call Ignorant. You seem to know some of your stuff, but I still don't buy most of it. If the only source I can find your information from is Wiki, then I definately can't buy it. Don't get me wrong, Personally I could careless what you believe, "Internet Debates" are not real debates lol. But it does help freshin the mind up for a real one.

It is not exactly a villain but US people and its media has a tendency to thump its chest as 'bastion of freedom, bestest place on the planet, #1 country in the world, etc', which is just pure propaganda and far from truth.
Having travelled extensively through most of Europe and North America, having lived in Canada for 10+ years ( btw, i came to Canada, was not born Canadian, so your Canuck jokes have zero effect on me),i've come to the conclusion that US is far more hype than reality and a middle-rung western nation just good at thumping its own chest.
Give me Canada, France, Holland, Germany, Japan, Korea, UAE, Denmark, Norway and Sweden ( and yes, i've travelled/lived in all but the last two lands mentioned here, so i think if you wish to challenge my opinion, atleast claim similar travelling experience) any day of the week over the US of A.

So, you've never lived in or been in the US? I'll find it hard to believe you live in Canada and haven't visited the United States, especially when 90% of the Population lives near the border, Damn didn't think I'd use Michael Moore's information in my life I think I might die now lol. The Thing is in the United States, Yeah we got that Propaganda, but honestly, we don't care. We know other nations have higher literacy rates, we know other nations have a more beautiful country side, but do we really care? We love where we live, and the parts we don't love we try to change. It's home. And you can't say people shouldn't be prideful of their home. I dont care where you lived or where you want to live, where you travel. Fact is, I like my country, I love my Home, and if you got a problem then deal with it, cause that won't change. And America's not the only Coutnry beating it's chest, You know how many immigrants I know that say thier country is So much better? I have friends from eastern Europe, and they constantly say "My country is better" without any reasons to back it up, and then when it comes down to it, Everything they love about a country the US has, and everything they hate about a country their country has(probably the reason they left their country) and yet, he still makes no connection that his own thoughts on how a country should and shouldnt be mean he shouldn't like his country. But hey, I can't blame him, he loves where he came from. I don't try to change that.


As for attacking Fox News? ARE F'ing KIDDING ME? I watch Fox, CNN, and BBC The reporting is almost the same, except CNN tends to be more liberal on certain issues. I dont see anything where Fox Jumps out and attacks Liberals and not Republicans, Bill O'Reilly is critical to everyone regardless of Parties, but he does have a Conservative Biased. If you compare Fox news to CNN, CBS, and MSNBC, then ofcourse you'll say Fox has a conservative biased, because these 3 stations have a liberal biased, so because Fox isnt as liberal as them it means Fox is conservative. I find Fox more entertaining, and informative than CNN, I watch BBC the least amount(i like local news) but I find it on the same level as Fox. Thats my opinion. Anyways, A study has been done.. 100% of the people that attack Fox only do it cause its a trend.

 

[Arlborn]

LMAO Well then as a Nuetral Foriegn observer, The Public Schools in Canada BRAIN WASH YOU, the public Schools in England BRAIN WASH you, The public Schools in France BRAIN WASH YOU, the Public Schools in Russia BRAINWASH YOU. First and formost, If you're just watching Movies about America, or even the news about America, then You can not claim to be a neutral Observer. You can't say America is brainwashed unless you goto the school and conduct research, Then you msut compare your research on American Schools, with Schools from other countries to see if the United States Brainwashes more. Lets face it all Education is brainwash, You teach people what you want them to know, But to say the United States Brain washes more? I'm highly doubtful. Every School system has a biased towards the people funding them, this means American School Systems like America, British School Systems like Britain, Iran School Systems like Iran, Catholic School systems Like Christianity. And so on.

Haha! Brazilian school loves Brazilian history, although most of the Brazilians might not agree with the school!

Ps: Ye, I am Brazilian and I like history. Our history is just plain funny in my eyes!


OK, completely off-topic and biased comment, sorry,

 

[UnspokenRequest]

My leader: Augustus Caesar. The guy designed a political system that enabled the Roman Empire to get out of a series of economic and political crisis (civil wars) that had been going on for a century.
His reforms are also one of the important reason why the Roman Empire was able to last for another 500 years. He brought order where there was chaos, without reducing liberties much compared to what was there before him.

Most serious economists will tell you that every measure that he passed actually made the depression worse and last longer. World War II and the military-industrial complex got us out of the depression in spite of the New Deal, not with the help of it.

I know it's been posted a long time ago, but this is so completely FALSE. That I wanted to oppose it.

Ever heard of nuance?

 

[Peng Qi]

I know it's been posted a long time ago, but this is so completely FALSE. That I wanted to oppose it.

Feel free to oppose it all you want, but if you ask any credible economist they'll tell you that every single measure that FDR passed will hurt a country that's in recession and can only help one that's experiencing a boom.