Who are the best leaders

[Ahimsadharma]

I actually said I have read non-American sources that all agree with me, including the majority of Japanese sources I have read.

Yay, japanese sources ! edited thoroughly by the American overlords in the 40s & 50s (post WWII japan). This is like reading about some Iraqi historian who just finished writing the 'true events of the war' form Baghdad today and then be paraded for neutrality.

Thinktanks are not the commanders on the ground. Usually they aren't even the commanders in charge of operations.

So you mean Majors, Leutanants, Captains, etc. ?
They thought at the time that nuking Japan was necessary ?
That is an incredible claim and truly underlines the extent of your misinformation. For nobody but the very top of the Political and Military circles knew of the nuke or even knew what a nuke is. You can't advocate the usage of a technology you do not know of, considering that Manhattan project and events right up to the dropping of first Nuke(including the nuke test) were extremely classified, so there is no way anyone apart form the top levels knew of its existence, let alone soldiers half a world away too busy fighting a war instead of following whats going on back home.

Except that we have no control over their actions, which is the defining element of a puppet government.

America has incredible control in Saudi affairs- infact, on ALL Saudi affairs that does not directly come into contact with spreading of islam or its logistics.
It just likes to pretend and claim it doesn't. But i just happened to live beside Saudi for 4 straight years- if Amerca claims it doesn't control Saudi affairs, it might as well claim that America doesn't control Delaware.

So Iran is a puppet.

No. Iraian equipment is not exclusively Soviet/Russian. If you are searching for another example of a puppet, look no further than Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Iraq(today), Afghanistan, Oman, etc. - all of them are American puppets.
And if you want a non-american example of a puppet regime, to assuage your ego, they exist too - Bhutan is a puppet of India(though unlike in the american puppet cases, Indian overlordship is welcomed by the Bhutanese), Chad is a puppet of Libya and Burma is a puppet of China.

So Iran's almost exclusively Russian arsenal doesn't count?

No because Iran's aresnal is nowhere close to being almost exclusively Russian. Infact, Iran inventories European and Chinese makes in their armed forces extensively. Whereas in the case of Saudi Arabia, 95% of their Armed forces ( military AND police)are equipped with american equipments. Now that is comming close to exclusive domination of the sector by one party.

Give me proof of this "crawling all over the countryside."

Read up on Freedom of Information Act websites. This is declassified Pentagon records, not to mention, Sandanista govt. in Nicaragua did manage to capture (and publicly parade, i suppose those stuff didnt make American tv, eh?) US operatives- pretty hard to claim you are anything but a spy when you are caught deep in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of a jungle, inside a warzone and you are this whiteguy from USA in a latino country.

So it's the difference between being intelligent, responsible, and far-thinking and being impulsive, irresponsible, and stupid?

Irrelevant counter, really.
As i said, reading up on the internet does not equate to guaging foreign sentiments or foreign culture/its perspectives. Living there or extended visits is what does it.

Nonsense. We broadcast bullcrap all the time. Everyone does.

Zero basis for claiming this.

Bottomline is, you are simply arguing to hide the obvious glaring barbarity in American policy because it flies in the face of your nation's propaganda that it feeds you.

I have come to the conclusion that it was the fault of the institute that conducted the study and the shady practices were not endorsed by the United States government.

As expected from you. This is despite the fact that Bill Clinton openly took responsibility of Tuskagee experiments by the US government, admitted that it was a US government initiative and apologized for it. This is during his first term in office.
Funny thing that the President of America is apologizing for American involvement and you are absolving the government.
A little dose of honesty and integrity, among with other virtues you were trying to preach before, would help i think. I have no more interest in trying to debate you, considering how far you are willing to bend the truth just to keep thumping your Yankee chest in pride. You are blinkered enough to pompously proclaim that it had nothing to do with the US government, when it is a FACT that the US government orchestrated such a heinous experimentation program on its own citizens, that the Pentagon oversaw this activity and some doctors were pressured enough to compliy that they quit. The President of the US has already taken full responsibility and yet you are trying to pull the wool over your own and all our eyes. But then again, you follow Fox and claim that it is objective news reporting. . Yes, you are right, we all just happen to hate the US of A. It is the bestest of the lands and nations and it has never done anything heinous towards others. Clearly, you will contend too that you are not a victim of American propaganda, just like a Taliban wannabe i met few years ago claiming he isn't a victim of radical islamic propaganda. This is afterall, the expected MO of propagandists and their victims.
I suggest you adapt the Aussie chant of 'Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi', for that is the general direction you are heading.I have nothing further to say to you on this topic. G'day.

 

[Peng Qi]

No, that's not it at all. Suffice to say, I highly recommend you try reading some sources that disagree with you and actually keep an open mind. One of us here may be the victim of massive propaganda, but I can assure you that person is not me.

 

[meatwad4289]

wow lol lots of repeating just happened.. I stopped reading his "anti American" posts since the seem the same wrong stuff with no new spin. Get's old...

Btw Egyptian Pyramids are the creation of Slave labor. Atleast 20,000 Men were needed for the Great Pyramid of Khufu over a span of 20 years. 20,000 men, all contract? no. Most Contract? very doubtful. some contract? possible. Now beause of the span of time, and the amount of pyramids built, It's reasonable to say thousands upon thousands of slaves died creating these, because I'm sure its not the same 20,000 person crew making all the pyramids across Egypt. Regardless, it would take 20 men to transport a 2.5 ton rock from the quarry to the construction site within 30 minutes, You honestly think people would willingly take these jobs for 20+years? If they did take the job, they would only for a hefty paycheck, and if thats the case, Slave Labor once again becomes the top choice. You don't need 20,000 troops to watch over 20,000 people. Think of it this way, they had weapons, the slaves didn't.. in a scuffle, I'm sure the Egyptians would be able to take out 3 to 4 slaves, and if there was a rebellion the Egyptian army could be brought in to quell it. So military paychecks would not be as high as contractor paychecks, since the military would not be doing the manual labor. Just thought I'd mention that as he said slave labor was a "Judaism/Christian" Myth..

 

[Quueg]

Please, please just ignore him.

 

[seasnake]

Btw Egyptian Pyramids are the creation of Slave labor. Atleast 20,000 Men were needed for the Great Pyramid of Khufu over a span of 20 years. 20,000 men, all contract? no. Most Contract? very doubtful. some contract? possible. Now beause of the span of time, and the amount of pyramids built, It's reasonable to say thousands upon thousands of slaves died creating these, because I'm sure its not the same 20,000 person crew making all the pyramids across Egypt. Regardless, it would take 20 men to transport a 2.5 ton rock from the quarry to the construction site within 30 minutes, You honestly think people would willingly take these jobs for 20+years? If they did take the job, they would only for a hefty paycheck, and if thats the case, Slave Labor once again becomes the top choice. You don't need 20,000 troops to watch over 20,000 people. Think of it this way, they had weapons, the slaves didn't.. in a scuffle, I'm sure the Egyptians would be able to take out 3 to 4 slaves, and if there was a rebellion the Egyptian army could be brought in to quell it. So military paychecks would not be as high as contractor paychecks, since the military would not be doing the manual labor. Just thought I'd mention that as he said slave labor was a "Judaism/Christian" Myth..

I laughed out loud at that one. And I loved how he ignored the Great Wall comment, another example of a "great wonder" steeped in blood (even the civilopedia mentions this). Oh well, me and my myths ...

On the A-bomb, it was a decision. It was war, and the U.S. knew the war would end if a bomb was dropped. My Grandpa (married my grandmother when I was small, not biological but still) was stationed on a ship near Japan. Less than six months ago he said (paraphrasing): We were readying an attack on the Japanese mainland. Our commanders told us we would be fighting an enemy on their home ground, and most would rather die than surrender, including women and children. We projected loss of a third of our troops and possibly 500,000 Japanese before the government would talk peace with the U.S. Then the bombs hit, broke the will of the Japanese, and we went in and began rebuilding. I lived there for six years, learned Japanese, got married and we rebuilt that country. I left the U.S. for Alaska six years later and it looked like a different country. No one ever blamed me for Nagasaki, they knew it ended the war and would have done the same to us if things were reversed."

He said he felt the need to tell me this because he kept hearing comments and specials on TV saying the bombs were evil/unconscionable. He just wanted someone to know he was there and that the bombs saved not just soldiers, but a lot of Japanese. He never boasted about it, he was saddened because he got to know several people who lost loved ones in the bombs. But he said it was the lesser of two evils, albeit an evil. And it seemed others there agreed with him.

This story is true, I believe the source and I have not changed it. You won't hear it on the news or on Wikipedia, but it was the way it was.

 

[seasnake]

But to Ahimsadharma: You're right, the U.S. has a past full of problems, racial and religious intolerance and immoral people in power. Likewise Spain had our inquisitions and civil wars and political desaparacidos. Still, Spain is beautiful in Andalucia, has incredible music like I've never heard anywhere else, and though I'm proud to be American, I still look fondly across the Atlantic.

BTW, every country has similar problems: wars, corruption, racism, classism, etc. Remember, in the U.S. people get outraged because prisoners are forced into unclean clothes in stress positioning without a trial. In other places, they are just quietly executed (Although more stable than most, Argentines still remember the time their loved ones would "go away" when a new regime came in). No outcry? No freedom of the press, too much fear to cry. In many places this is still true.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

It's reasonable to say thousands upon thousands of slaves died creating these, because I'm sure its not the same 20,000 person crew making all the pyramids across Egypt.

Umm thousands upon thousands die in big huge projects. Do you think if today India undertook a massive building project, people will not die ?
Deaths are a function of the engineering challenges presented, not a question of slave labour.
Slave labour is nothing more than Judeo-Christian propaganda as is most of their stuff about Egyptians.
Likewise with the great wall- that is nothing more than an eurocentric spin to the event. Yes, Chinese govt back then(and still today) are brutal and repressive but slave labour never built anything on mass scale before the era of guns.
Simply because, 20,000 slaves would require a sizeable armed forces comitted to it to guard against any uprising. That is too much internal garissoning and not enough defending the borders.
For a Civ4 player to think that wonders are slave-made, is nothing short of ridiculousness, really. Next time, try to see what happens if you are building a wonder in your capital and half your military is sitting in your capital, far away from your borders. You just get owned by the next guy and that was no different in the ancient world.
A great many died making the wall as well as the pyramid but as an engineer, i can say that overwhelming majority of those deaths are safety-issue related, not slave related.
When you are building a wall thats 3000 Km long or a building 100s of feet high, people fall off, people get crushed by stone, slip in the terrain, etc etc.
That is the cause of death for most cases, not being slaves.
Slavery was not an organized phenomenon in the ancient world before the invention of guns. This is not to say that slavery didn't exist- Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Iranians all had slaves ( India is one notable exception for never keeping slaves in its ancient history) but they were all personal attendant/attendants of the estate kind of slaves. Nobody in their right mind mobilized hundreds or thousands of slaves at the same time without a very good reason, nevermind keep them all together for 20+ years to build something.
Ancient civs might've been misguided (and that is no different with religions today) but they wern't exactly dumb people. A Pharaoh wouldn't do that logically. Not to mention, as i said, some tablets from Memphis seem to prove this, as it is accountancy tablets of how much was paid to whom and how many were paid etc etc. for a certain pyramid ( not sure which one).

No outcry? No freedom of the press, too much fear to cry. In many places this is still true.

There are outcries about what people find out. Thats all. There are outcries even in China today when govt.keeps family members in the dark about flood victims in a mine. US has had that happen till the 1970s to colored people for example and still today you can disappear without a trace in some parts US if you are colored (i know, i've driven through those hick towns before).
US also experimented on its own people and that is something most nations have not stooped to.
I just don't get this whole US hoopla- it is a rich nation, powerful nation, i will grant you that, but extremely malevolent in nature as a fundamental stance.
And damn right hypocritical too.
I wonder just how many US Generals or Majors stood public trial, like the Nazi war criminals did for their concentration camps- so far i see no difference between that and Abu Ghraib.
I don't care that US isnt very humane in nature- as you rightly pointed out, most nations arn't and humanity still has far to go. But what gets me annoyed about the US is their media's incessant potayal of them somehow being freer than the rest of the world or being the best place to live. Now, i know for a fact it isn't really- there are dozen nations i'd readily live in before the US- but the US shameless propaganda is a few zillion times worse than most nations i know of.
Thats what annoys me the most about America. Very much the central antagonist character from the 'mirror mirror, who is the prettiest of them all?' story.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

It was war, and the U.S. knew the war would end if a bomb was dropped.

No, that is another piece of US propaganda. Japan did not surrender because of the nukes- Japan surrendered because Soviet Union declared war on them, soviet union annexed and took over Manchuria and the Soviet had at that time built a fearsome reputation by almost single-handedly defeating the Nazis (yes, it was the soviet union who gets 90% of the credit for beating Hitler).
This is also noted in declassified Japanese military transmissions at the eve of WWII's end.

On the A-bomb, it was a decision.

More like Trueman overruling all sound advice to exact his revenge for Pearl harbour. Afterall, he is on record for making outright racist statements of his own ( US was very much a near-Hitler style racist nation back then) and he was extremely anxious to reclaim the 'white pride' from the utter mauling it recieved at the hands of 'slant eyed heathen' in Pearl Harbour.
He is on public record to've said as much in his national speeches. That Japanese history is very pro-American in post-WWII days is simply because America owned Japan militarily for much later than WWII and was utterly powerless to do anything about it ( Japan was not an economic power house till the late 70s).

And it seemed others there agreed with him.

This is only because most others have very little concept of how truely evil nuclear bombs are, what their impact on the planet, on the human species and other life-forms are on long term scales.
Had your grandfather and the ones who agree with him known a bit about just exactly what happens with nuclear fallout and how it impacts human species, i am sure they'd have preffered to take a 'higher immediate casualty' than unleashing the most barbaric act ever commited by man(using a nuclear weapon over a city).

People who try to say that the nukes ended the war are not only incorrect( USSR's declaration of war & invasion of Manchuria was of bigger consequence to the Japanese war effort- that is what made surrender inevitable to the Japenese in their 'bushido code', not the fear of death), it is also highly ignorant in trying to say immediate death-toll would've been greater and that is reason enough to f*ck around entire humanity with its effect.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

Think of it this way, they had weapons, the slaves didn't.. in a scuffle, I'm sure the Egyptians would be able to take out 3 to 4 slaves, and if there was a rebellion the Egyptian army could be brought in to quell it

You do not understand. You really do not. perhaps you should read certain chinese texts, to do with building the great wall, on why China opted for PAID labour over slave labour. it is not modern chinese propaganda- it is over 1500 years old chinese govt. text to do with repairing a stetch of the great wall that was demolished by the Mongols/Turks.

If you read the text, it'd become clear to you why Slave labour wasn't used in building pyramids/the great wall or for essentially any large scale construction (ie, requiring thousands of men for decades) :

To secure 20,000 slaves, you'd need a garrison of 5000-6000 soldiers staying put and doing NOTHING for 20 years. You have to pay for their upkeep, keep them supplied with equipment, give them good food ( you don't want your soldier's morale to drop, especially if you were being stingy while a great expensive project is underway) and care for their animals- all for 20+ years ( or however long it takes for your massive project to build).

Plus you got to feed the slaves anyways, since you don't exactly want slaves to keep dying on you in huge numbers, as slaves were expensive to replace.
Slavery in ancient times wasn't exactly a turkey-shoot like European slavery of Africans were (where europeans showed up with guns and assaulted people in spears and clubs!)- each time the 'despot' needed new slaves, they'd actually have to pick a fight with a weaker power and enslave them. Picking a fight = men dying = new men requiring training to replace the fallen soldier = expensive !

The Chinese text for example, talks specifically of not letting the soldier-to-slave ratio fall below 5:1, since that would mean that the slaves stood a chance to beat the armed guards if an ambush was planned.
And the text recognized the fact that 'its okay, armed enforcements are on the way, damn slaves would be quelled tomorrow morning' is highly stupid.
Simply because, even if the slaves managed to get out of control for a short period of time, they could do incalculable damage to the 'great monument' being built and these super-projects like the Pyramids, Great wall, etc. were extremely expensive financially- so much so that idea of 'slaves destroyed half
the thing overnight' would mean permanent abandonment of the project.


As some ancient Chinese and Egyptian records show, it was simply a cheaper option to hire a lot of poor people to do the labour-work than keep an army of 5000 armed and ready nearby to guard the slaves. The ancient world still had a lot of poor people and even in highly advanced/rich societies, they had ready access to poor people if not in their own nation, then just outside their borders. It was simply, a far cheaper option to toss in a few coins and 3 meals inorder to get hire poor people for labour jobs than keep 5000 armed men sitting around and guarding the slaves.

I am sorry, but if there is one thing that history has taught me is that most people's concept of history is highly flawed and rather illogical.
Our ancestors( for those which were civilizations and not just barbarians) thousands of years ago might've been less advanced technologically than us, but they were still pretty good at economics and figuring out the cheaper way of doing things.

 

[Arlborn]

He just has a lot of...um, opinions!
But so do others around here that keep answering him, so...
Some people can't see their countries in the opinion of others as well. While others can't accept arguments. Vicious cycle you know...

 

[e350tb]

Hittler rookied it by invading Russia. 'Never start a land war in Asia'. He should of gone for Britain..........

Hitler would have been stuffed either way. Go via Russia, and there's the winter. Hitler didn't have a hope in high heaven to passs the Royal Navy AND Canda/Australia/New Zealnd ect. navies. (Besides, I don't think the Brits will like you for that comment).

I personally belive Churchill was the best. All right, he was a bit old fashioned, but no other PM would have had the guts to stand up to Hitler, one small island nation after France, thier only European Ally, fell to the German onslaught.

 

[Flamer123]

just 2 notes, but i do think this debate has become way too heated:

1)I wouldn't contradict written ancient history so quickly unless I've proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it's not possible. u can challenge that and that's great, and u can give examples of other civilizations which is also great, but not all civilizations chose the same paths. Moreover, people at ancient times didn't have our nation of freedom being such an important principal. what am i talking about ancient times - slavery was abolished in the U.S at the 19th century... When u're starving / trying to survive / not well educated and don't know better / most of the population are slaves as well freedom really isn't that important.

2) spartans/helots ratio was 1:7. Quite often because of that, sparta couldn't send its forces out of sparta to fight cause they wanted to avoid the threat of a revolution back home. However, it doesn't mean that the troops guarding the slaves are a waste, cause at times when they really needed a larger army the ratio back home dropped (the threat abroad was greater than the threat back home). Moreover, every regiment needs R&R so to speak from its time abroad, so again, the troops guarding slaves closer to home weren't a waste, they were in a vaccation


I have a question about india's society - i've only travelled there for 4 months, but from my understanding, there's a defined caste system, in which only certain castes are the rulling castes etc. That system wouldn't have worked in the west where the "equality" principal is so high, but people of lower castes that i talked to didn't at all mind it. They were happy to live in their caste, and not seek something else.
Ignorance is bliss - i always remember i enjoyed the time i spent in the army more than i enjoyed my 25-30's - needing to constantly decide what to do in life/job etc is really hard when u have so many options, while knowing that most is decided for u can sometimes provide u with a much needed relief.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

I have a question about india's society - i've only travelled there for 4 months, but from my understanding, there's a defined caste system, in which only certain castes are the rulling castes etc.

err..pardon me, but i don't get what exactly is your question ?

 

[Flamer123]

my question is unconnected to the rest of the post.
The question was: does the caste system really exists in day to day life as i understood it (meaning that a man's opportunities depends a lot on his birth class), and if it does, why is there no great movement to change it.

 

[Arlborn]

my question is unconnected to the rest of the post.
The question was: does the caste system really exists in day to day life as i understood it (meaning that a man's opportunities depends a lot on his birth class), and if it does, why is there no great movement to change it.

I guess he wanted a question mark ^^
Anyway, if all I hear is true, it is supposed to be illegal, but a lot of people still uses it +-...or not?

 

[seasnake]

I wonder just how many US Generals or Majors stood public trial, like the Nazi war criminals did for their concentration camps- so far i see no difference between that and Abu Ghraib.

I'm now officially done posting in this forum. You're simply insane. Any person who can't see the difference between the systematic destruction of 6 million people forced to build war machines and one prison using stress position questioning tactics, a process condemned by the Americans and the colonels in charge of the prison dismissed and facing court martial is insane. Prisoners in Abu Ghraib are fed, clothed, given prayer time and exercise time. Free hint: a lot of prison's have bad guys who run them. It was found, fixed, and stays fixed until the next problem. A concentration camp was where people starved to death, were shot for praying, and gassed when they couldn't do hard labor. No difference?

I'm sorry, but the bomb did break the will of the Japanese, they surrendered not after learning "Russia is coming too" but after two bombs went off on the mainland. The timing of the treaty is an indicator.
You keep pulling these "sources say" but I have firsthand account of someone in the front lines of the battle. I know there were probably more factors than just the bomb, but don't try to say the bomb wasn't what ended the war.

And speaking of tests on citizens, in Germany at WWII they experimented on their own citizens, they're Jewish populations. A racist motivated study, sound familiar? They would go so far as to cut off Jewish peoples' arms and sew on dead arms to see if the surgery would take. Or you have places like Rwanda or Bosnia, were rather than conduct racist medical experiments they simply kill minorities. In other words, the U.S. is not alone in the mistreatment of minorities, and if that alone makes it evil than pretty much everywhere is evil.

The U.S. calls itself the bastion of freedom because 1) they have never had a military coup after writing the constitution, 2) the constitution created the first democracy still surviving today, 3) the wealth, standard of living, and earning power so vastly outstrips many other countries it is quite empowering. When we say God Bless America we mean it two ways: We are thankful for what is good and pray for guidance to fix the wrong.

You're also wrong about one other thing. Most people know the country has problem. No one complains about the U.S. like an American. We just get defensive others complain. Sort of like I can say my house is a mess and its honest, you show up and say its a mess and its rude. Americans "circle the wagons" when attacked and come together, then argue among themselves when the threat is over about health care and education and the War in Iraq.

It is not perfect, but nowhere is. And having lived around the world, I'm glad I'm here now. I'm proud to be American, and I work hard so things will get better.

Oh, and to address the slave labor concern: look at how many Romans were slaves v. free men and how they were treated, there are actual facts on those. Slaves could actually become quite powerful and well-liked, but they were still not free. And guess what, the populations of slaves were enormous with little army. Why? Because they accepted their lot in life as slaves, believed it was their "place." Same reason in India a top caste of thousands can oppress a sunken group of millions. They believed it they're lot in life. The few who didn't were killed and made examples of, keeping the rest in line. Slaves in the southern U.S. would frequently defend their masters against the Union Army, because they were conditioned through time to obey.

Besides, if the divine Emperor or Pharaoh "wishes" a project built to honor his burial, can you really say "no" or negotiate wages or unions? Defy the pharoah = tossed into the jackal pits. I highly doubt egyptian farmers were queing up for the great job opportunities involved in carrying 2-ton blocks of rock up a narrow wooden ramp where maiming and death were common. The conversation goes: "Bill died under a block today Carlos, we need you in at five." "Hot dog, I can't wait for my opportunity to risk death and injury and engage in back-breaking labor as a free engineer on this construction project!"

In short, slaves were everywhere, they were a class of people and most were conditioned to believe it was supposed to be that way. And because slaves could gain power and influence and still be slaves, and because troublemakers got killed, the population stayed under that belief for years. A bunch of engineers, my eye.

This is my last post on this discussion and last time I view this forum, so thank-you for your thought provoking discussion and see around the othe threads (the ones about the game).

 

[Ahimsadharma]

Besides, if the divine Emperor or Pharaoh "wishes" a project built to honor his burial, can you really say "no" or negotiate wages or unions? Defy the pharoah = tossed into the jackal pits. I highly doubt egyptian farmers were queing up for the great job opportunities involved in carrying 2-ton blocks of rock up a narrow wooden ramp where maiming and death were common. The conversation goes: "Bill died under a block today Carlos, we need you in at five." "Hot dog, I can't wait for my opportunity to risk death and injury and engage in back-breaking labor as a free engineer on this construction project!"

Dude, its not a question of obeying/disobeying the 'divine Pharaoh'. It is simply about costs. As i said, there are egyptian tablets and chinese manuscripts, to do with great building projects and their tenders/supply list etc. and it is MUCH cheaper to simply hire poor people for 3 meals + some coins than give 3 meals to slaves and have thousands of well equipped army(which is expensive to maintain) sit around overseeing them.
And yes, there are enough poor people, especially in those days, to take on dangerous job if it meant some pay- look at most of the third world today- they have lot of poor people who'd do dangerous jobs for money.

Slaves were not used as grunt labour for most huge building projects because it was cheaper to hire out the poor folks than feed soldiers + cost of keeping a mini army sitting around for decades !

 

[hoopsnerd]

Dude, its not a question of obeying/disobeying the 'divine Pharaoh'. It is simply about costs. As i said, there are egyptian tablets and chinese manuscripts, to do with great building projects and their tenders/supply list etc. and it is MUCH cheaper to simply hire poor people for 3 meals + some coins than give 3 meals to slaves and have thousands of well equipped army(which is expensive to maintain) sit around overseeing them.
And yes, there are enough poor people, especially in those days, to take on dangerous job if it meant some pay- look at most of the third world today- they have lot of poor people who'd do dangerous jobs for money.

Slaves were not used as grunt labour for most huge building projects because it was cheaper to hire out the poor folks than feed soldiers + cost of keeping a mini army sitting around for decades !

In all fairness here, Ahimsadharma has a good point in that many of those workers were not "slaves" by common definition, but they were basicly "wage slaves" as alluded to by Seasnake. The aforementioned "poor people" that were willing to work on these great projects had no other source of potential employment and were not landowners with farmable land. While working for the Pharoah wouldn't be at all lucrative, it's still better than watching your family starve -- one didn't need to the threat of "getting thrown into the jackal pits," to motivate him to work for the pharoah, it was just a way for people with no other means to get by.

Basicly, Great projects were built by "wage slaves" who were undoubtedly cheaper than "slaves" who know they were "slaves" and aspire to rebel against their masters. "Wage slaves" are basicly the modern equivelent of "sweatshop labor." Children in modern China aren't jumping up and down to work in the horrible conditions of sweatshops, but one does what one has to do to survive.

Edit: The other reason it wouldn't work to have mass amounts of slaves build a huge project - aside from the fact that they could rebel and destroy it - is that just keeping a huge group of slaves all in one place is basicly asking for a huge rebellion. It's pretty easy to get a "Sparticus" situation on your hands when the slaves start outnumbering soldiers --and know about it. Slaves kept seperate in individual dwellings/farms/etc. wouldn't experience the same "mob mentality" effect and would also make it much more difficult to organize any sort of slave rebellion.

Ancient Sparta was able to maintain rather high soldier-slave ratios because they adopted such methods as well as training the Spartan women with the broadsword in order to put down a slave rebellion when men were off at war. If the army had to be called in, the slaves were made fully aware that no slave would survive. This further motivated individual slaveowners to put down their own slave rebellions and discourage the use of military to putdown slave revolts, as well as discourage slave revolts in the first place.

 

[Ahimsadharma]

oes the caste system really exists in day to day life as i understood it (meaning that a man's opportunities depends a lot on his birth class), and if it does, why is there no great movement to change it.

Caste system does exist today, though it has been illegal for 60 years. As per great movement to change it - there exists considerable initiatives from the government and NGOs at both official and social levels to root out caste system but it is a bit like racism in the US for eg- just because you made it illegal to discriminate based on race doesn't mean that the practice is dead and you won't be tossed from a 'whitey bar' in hicktown US. Same with caste system.

As per acceptance of the caste system- there exists some acceptance of it too, due to multiple reasons.
In the oldest of literature we have, caste system was alive but very much benign/a form of economic demarcation ( as today we have service sector/mfg sector/agriculture sector etc) and there are numerous examples of a Priest (brahmin, highest caste) being the son of a warrior caste ( Kshatriya, second in the chain) and who's son/daughter is a merchant class ( Vaishya, third in the chain). For caste was simply defined by what you did, not what you were born into.
But in the course of many thousands of years of our history, caste system has periodically become rigid and that caused great social friction. This happened in cycles of over thousands of years- where the free flowing caste system would become rigid and 'by birth' because of the higher caste's greed to stay in power on family basis. That usually followed a couple of hundred years of opression before some reformer Joe came along and set the train back on its proper tracks. The only caste consistently discriminated against in Indian history are the 'untouchable' caste and in ancient times, one became an untouchable if one were guilty of serious crimes ( eg: rape,murder,etc) as India rarely had the death penalty in their lands for anything but treason for most of her history ( a fact recorded by ancient Roman & Greek historians).

Ironically enough, the caste system as it exists today is in large part due to Islamic & British interference - before Islamic conquest of the subcontinent ( starting around 700 AD, really picking up momentum from 1096- 1700s), much of the subcontinent was ruled by hindu or buddhist emperors, for about 1000 years since Ashoka set the exampe of humanity amongst rulers. The subcontinent beleif system was pretty diverse too, with significant amount of buddhists & jains coexisting with Hindus. And for most of that period, caste system was non-existant.
But as the Muslim invaders (and later the British) found out, revival of the caste system made rulership much easier, as they essentially needed to control the small % of upper castes to their agenda and they'd control the rest 'for the invaders'.

The biggest thing that ensured caste system remained largely violence-free in its history (as in devoid of significant agitation from lower castes) is because the caste system in its 'by birth' rigid mode (the phases in history when that happened) worked nicely into the concept of Karma/rebirth- most people, regardless of high/low caste believed that their current caste standing is due to their deeds in their past lives and their actions in the current life will define their possible future- so a high caste person accepted that he/she is in that position due to merit earned in earlier life as a 'good samaritan' lower caste and that if he/she goes nuts, in the next life they'd get demoted again.
This sort of fate-based interpretation and looking at life in terms of 'many livetimes' ensured a degree of automatic acceptance of one's fate.

In India today, caste system exists but mostly in rural/backwater places- the urban centers and metropolises have moved on from caste barriers for the most part. During independence, thee was a big debate on whether India should scrap the caste system alltogether or simply restore it to its ancient relevance, where it was an economic (and in case of the untouchables, a form of justice delivered due to crimes) demarcation. After much debate, it was decieded to scrap the caste system alltogether, because even though it started in a very benign form, it has been misused several times in our history and it carries too much historical baggage to ever be fully restored as a benign economic demarcation.
But a practice that has been around for thousands of years is hard to get rid of in merely 60- yet there is progress in that field.

 

[Arlborn]

Hey, I am American too!
...Right?...

southamericaisamericatoo