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Who are the worst AI Leaders in the game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by jpinard, Nov 12, 2007.

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Who are the worst AI leaders in the game?

  1. Bismarck (Germany)

    14 vote(s)
    9.0%
  2. Tokugawa (Japan)

    89 vote(s)
    57.4%
  3. Genghis Kahn (Mongolia)

    8 vote(s)
    5.2%
  4. Kublai Kahn (Mongolia)

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Wang Kon (Korea)

    16 vote(s)
    10.3%
  6. Isabella (Spain)

    18 vote(s)
    11.6%
  7. Catherine (Russia)

    2 vote(s)
    1.3%
  8. Saladin (Arabia)

    11 vote(s)
    7.1%
  9. Asoka (India)

    6 vote(s)
    3.9%
  10. Gandhi (India)

    6 vote(s)
    3.9%
  11. Sitting Bull (Native America)

    29 vote(s)
    18.7%
  12. Suleiman (Ottoman)

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  13. Pericles (Greece)

    4 vote(s)
    2.6%
  14. Alexander (Greece)

    4 vote(s)
    2.6%
  15. Cyrus (Persia)

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  16. Peter (Russia)

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  17. Churchill (England)

    5 vote(s)
    3.2%
  18. Zara Yoqab (Ethiopia)

    4 vote(s)
    2.6%
  19. Other

    25 vote(s)
    16.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. magicalsushi

    magicalsushi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    571
    Location:
    Oxford, UK
    When I've played against Gilgamesh, he's always managed to conquer a big empire, Mehmed-style.

    Saladin has consistently been one of the best AI leaders in my games. He always ends up being worshipped by most other AIs, building lots of wonders, being in the top tier techwise, and controlling a huge empire mostly acquired peacefully. If attacked, he usually ends up taking a few cities and vassalising his aggressor (who will inevitably end up becoming a diplomatic pariah if he does not become Saladin's vassal). Also, he always seems to found Judaism, and for the most part does an acceptable job of spreading it. As far as I can tell, he achieves this by virtue of a very balanced game strategy, rather than the all-or-nothing pure war/pure tech approach of some of the other high-performing leaders.
     
  2. Hawe Hawe

    Hawe Hawe Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2007
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Friedrichshain
    Maybe i can't really judge Gilgamesch, because as a BtS Leader he is stil new, and it is from my few experiences with him. I get the feeling he is a bit coded to go the espionage way. It would make sense, regarding his UB, but espionage can be hindering for the AI because they dont use it effectively.
    My experiences with Saladin are exactly opposite: I agree, he often founds Judaism, but if other religions are already established, this puts him in diplomatic trouble. And i have never seen him win those resulting religious wars.
    But experiences are probably not of a general value, so you might be right as well.
    Others: Mao in my opinion has one of the weakest trait combinations possible. Isabella is coded to be absolutely insane as AI. Her high religious modifier is not that problematic. More so it is her aim to found not only one religioon but if possible all. I have often seen her go directly Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. That means Madrid is often triple holy city, but she has done nothing else for her development. Even more so: She can't control how her own religions spreads and so she creates those religious enemies among her better developed neighbours.
     
  3. magicalsushi

    magicalsushi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    571
    Location:
    Oxford, UK
    Plenty of people here have had similar experiences with him to yours. There are also people who've had similar experiences to me, but I think I'm the one in the minority. It's worth remembering that, while he's done well in "all of my games", my games take about 60 hours, and I only get to play for about 5 hours a week. "All my games with Saladin" ~= 3. :)

    I dunno, I'd say the religious diplomatic modifiers are quite a handicap. Strategically, it's practically irrelevent whether a civ shares your religion or not (especially if you don't even have the holy city), so any AI who primarily bases their diplomatic relations on that factor has a serious handicap. Furthermore, Isabella is programmed to build a smaller-than-average army but to be very fearless about declaring war against a stronger opponent. It's a recipe for trouble. She'll do well occasionally, but the deck is stacked against her, due to her psychotic personality.
     
  4. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,341
    Tokugawa has done fairly well for himself in some of my BtS games. With the more aggressive AI, he actually occassionally makes use of his traits in warfare. Saw him wail on Mansa Musa a few times.

    On the other hand, Isabella hasn't performed well in a few of my games. It seems like she invests way too much in spreading religion and not enough in expansion/economy/military. I might just be imagining that though.
     
  5. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    That's the Monty I know :)

    Guess why?

    I voted for Toku, Monty, Izzy, Saladin, Wang Kon, Other EDIT: And Peter and Sitting Bull, btw.

    May I ask why AIs such as Cyrus, Asoka or the greeks are in the poll instead of someone more plausible, Mansa Musa, per example?
     
  6. Permanganate

    Permanganate Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    66
    Toku, Mao, you know the drill.

    Yes, their inclusion is odd, though I wouldn't include Mansa either; in my games he trades well so does well. He also has decent traits, a good UB, and an antirush UU. What are your experiences with him?
     
  7. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Apr 20, 2007
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    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    I agree that I cuold've grabbed a better example, but he trades tech too much and at too lousy ratios. He also often grabs a late religion that gets him no friends at all. I often find him with Taoism. His UB is kinda bunk IMHO, his UU is best for AIs, agreed, and his traits are good (fin is always nice), but have poor synergy. I find Cyrus to be miles better than Mansa Musa, and the greeks aswell for that matter. Also, Mansa hasn't really got the guts for military and/or backstabs unless you're really, really weak. In my opinion.
     
  8. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,466
    Location:
    Babylon
    Any protective civ, really.
     
  9. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    Churchill ranks top-half on my table.
     
  10. Phalangite

    Phalangite Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    5
    Wang Kon for me. often grabs an early religion, never spreads it, and builds wonders (eg great wall/stonehenge) before building any cities, and consequently ends up as axe bait for Shaka, Alex or Ragnar. I have heard he can become a powerhouse if left alone later in the game, he just never lasts that long in mine
     
  11. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    6,344
    Location:
    Air Temple Island
    Tokugawa of course, I always end up killing him off using units 2 generations ahead of his. His isolation and its policies just come back to kick his ass when he is outtech by everyone and left alone to rot and die.

    Isabella, She never does anything but pray. Many times I see her leave expansion alone to die as she begins to churn out more missionaries than settlers. Once I had her as a close neighbour, she sent me a missonary at around 2500BC. 20 Turns later when I marched into Buddhist-Jewish Holy city, i find 1 archer, 2 warriors, 1 worker and 2 missioraries. The only thing in Madrid was a temple, a Monastry and a Granary....
     
  12. Minmaster

    Minmaster Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
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    504
    Location:
    California
    yea right, you can only trade cities for cities or gift for free. you can't mix resources and cities for trade. liar...
     
  13. kcmarkwell

    kcmarkwell Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    91
    this is a tough question because ALL are good in given situations...

    Set it up on agg AI diety and all are good =)
     
  14. Florian

    Florian Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    337
    Tokugawa has never been anything special in my games, but I do remember one game where I had a long, bruising, barely-won war with him (the kind where by the time you finally win, another AI is ready to take all the spoils from your Redcoats by killing them with Helicopter Gunships). Montezuma is usually pretty inept too, but my current game has made me revise my overall impression of him. He's vassalized Huyana Capac, is the score leader now in the early 20th century, and is making me scramble with some very nicely done (and unending) amphibious invasions. And he just got Destroyers, so I need to figure out a way to get oil pronto, or it's all over.

    Isabella, on the other hand, never does well. And I've seen her more than any other AI, I think, because she ends up in 90% of my games for some reason. She just never has enough troops, or advanced enough troops, to keep declaring war on people like she does.
     
  15. Minmaster

    Minmaster Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    504
    Location:
    California
    dear FIRAXIS:

    For Civ V, please do not cripple Japan (like Civ 3 and 4). do you have a deep rooted hate for the Japanese and do not want to see them do well as AI? Its nonsense that they make them an isolationist that remains crippled in most games because they wanted to make them seem realistic. yeah... right...that's why mali is the most scientifically advanced race in the world and mexicans (aztecs) are bloodthirsty warmongers. i understand historical realism, but c'mon this crippling of Japan is getting pretty stupid and old...

    trade is without doubt one of the most crucial elements to succeeding in this game. creating a civ that when AI controls pretty much neglects trade is absurd.
     
  16. m4gill4

    m4gill4 King

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    772
    Location:
    CA
    Toku may be a bit foolish, but at least he defends himself. Sitting Bull is a complete putz. I've never seen him win a battle, even against other AI. 75% of the time I see him, he is vassalized to another AI.
     
  17. Mr. Civtastic

    Mr. Civtastic Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    488
    Other. Ive NEVER seen Lincoln do well, while I have seen Toku do well a couple times (though those times are rare)
     
  18. solvero

    solvero Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    52
    I have to defend Saladin and Mansa Musa. Mansa Musa is a great researcher, and very often I find him with a strong peaceful empire. In fact when I play with him on the same map, I try not to let him tech to fast, but if I find him on another continent he is almost always the strongest civ there.

    Saladin too has a large peaceful empire, and I reckon he does spread his religion. I just hate him because he's a religion fanatic.
     
  19. Quagga

    Quagga Former Dictator

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    663
    Location:
    Li'l Rhody
    Given these poll results and insightful comments, what now? How about we come up with some tweaks that make Tokugawa into a decent leader?
     
  20. jpinard

    jpinard Martian

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    760
    Location:
    Enceladus, Saturn
    I think the main problem with Tok is economic. So maybe a special trait that offsets that loss?
     

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