Who has the stronger land forces, US or Russia?

[brennan]

I will believe in the 'virtue' of the UN when I see them do a better job. But when I see film footage of Hezbollah militia using UN marked ambulances to ferry troops around Lebanon.....well, the word 'virtue' isnt what comes to mind.

Can you demonstrate that those ambulances were in the possession of the UN at the time, rather than the gang of gunmen? Can you prove they were UN ambulances at all?

 

[MobBoss]

You've already stated that you believe in the virtue of the UN. That's the reason that you say the US invaded Iraq, afterall. And it's a war you support, so you of course follow the UN.

You blatently mis-state my position. I think the UN is crap. It makes resolutions that it does not have the backbone to enforce. I dont follow the UN, but I view the Iraq war as being largely necessary because the UN lacks the balls to do the job it needed to.

Can you demonstrate that those ambulances were in the possession of the UN at the time, rather than the gang of gunmen? Can you prove they were UN ambulances at all?

I know you are a terrorist-pologist......but really now.

I know...maybe I mis-translated the big blue U and the N on the ambulance. Yeah...thats it.

 

[philippe]

Pure. Comedy. Gold.

I rather have a sincere "idealist" then such cynicalism

I will believe in the 'virtue' of the UN when I see them do a better job. But when I see film footage of Hezbollah militia using UN marked ambulances to ferry troops around Lebanon.....well, the word 'virtue' isnt what comes to mind.

If iraqi insurgents drive around in Iraqi police vehicles and put on police uniforms is that the fault of the iraqi goverment?

Can I have your house then? Dont be so selfish as to want to keep it from me now.

Ah, the old evil communist argument

Oh, I am all for 'talking before killing'. However, in my opinion, the UN is all talk and no action and has been for some time now. Its basically the reason guys like Saddam or Ahmadinawhackjob thumb their nose at the UN and go on about their business. They know you wont do anything military about their actions since you have such a PC attitude.

Well how come then you get so enraged when they vote a "anti Israeli-American" resolution then? It's all talk anyway

 

[jprc]

Very few of you know exactly what UN do.

And among you, how many actually are on the ground for seing what happens?

The United Nations' action are mostly NOT about peacekeeping!!!
It is NOT a military institution!
Most actions are done through UNDP (and for you, at Christmas, you will heard more about UNICEF...), which is an aid agency.
There are thousands of projects, animated by people like you and me, engineers, lawers, economists, all highly educated, and it is about providing technical assistance to institutional reforms, support to privatizations, support to ministries and public services, support to infrastructure development, etc etc...

The ambulances you saw were hijacked. Exactly like you, in your car, can be hijacked on a highway parking lot.
I also recalled having seen Somali people in Hummer cars some years ago in Mogadicio. Still with the "US army" registration Hum!...
What are you going to do when men with kalach are surounding you vehicule? Have you simply ever been facing men with rusty weapons and nervous, intoxicated behaviors? You know that your live is for nothing. You handle the stuff, and you go away happy if they don't take you for a ransom, or simply finish you up on the side of a dirt road...

No experts are armed. And no peacekeeper off duty and out of a delimited perimeter may carry a weapon.

I have been hijacked 3 times in Chad, each time when I was off duty, going with a non marked car to a sport center at Garoua, or simply going to play golf in the sand along the river Chari...
I did nothing because I know exactly what can be done, and what is just Hollywood movies.
When you actually live in such countries, you do know who has got your car, but you can do nothing. Because it goes often way above what you can handle if you want to keep your project alive. In the case of Chad, you had few questions about the whereabouts of your lost Toyota land-cruiser pick ups: which tribe is with your equipment, the one from the President or from the Min of Defense?... Hadjaraï? Gorane?

Ambulances you said? What do you expect from the nurses or medical personel who was inside??
I guess the ambulances were purchased with the internationnal medical aid for a country or hospital. As usual poor people will suffer because big bad guys will play the little soldiers around and locals will suffer more and more ...


Now about the United Nations...

Critic is easy.
And it is a fact that the UN is very far from being perfect.
It is a mosaic of so many different cultures and opinions that if you say "white" at the start, it will end with "it is in a light color that is not exactly white but can also probably be different that black", and done in a document of 128 pages, translated in 28 main languages.
It is heavy. It is expensive. It is slow. It is not always following the US viewpoint (sic). It is depending on others for decisions. It has no armed power, etc.....
It is everything you like or hate.
Ok! There are a lot of things to correct, we know this!

It is why we need people with a strong will, and a positive mind, for giving a friendly hand... and not by talking while watching CNN with a beer in a hand
Are you ready to go to Darfur, Angola, Congo, Indonesia, etc for a couple of years?
Ah! forgot ... it is 3 days now I have no water. Don´t forget to bring a bucket with you, it can be useful.

 

[MjM]

Anyone who thinks Russia has a stronger millitary is a dirty pinko.

 

[MobBoss]

The ambulances you saw were hijacked. Exactly like you, in your car, can be hijacked on a highway parking lot.

Fine. However, I would say there is as much evidence of them being hijacked as there is that they were simply given to the hezzies for their use. Now. What did the UN do about it? Answer: NOTHING.

I also recalled having seen Somali people in Hummer cars some years ago in Mogadicio. Still with the "US army" registration Hum!...

Proof please.

Ambulances you said? What do you expect from the nurses or medical personel who was inside??
I guess the ambulances were purchased with the internationnal medical aid for a country or hospital. As usual poor people will suffer because big bad guys will play the little soldiers around and locals will suffer more and more ...

Do you know why you dont see Iraqi insurgents driving around in US ambulances? Because we protect them with armed guards. And if we do have to abandon vehicles, we destroy them instead of leaving them for the enemy to salvage.

And it is a fact that the UN is very far from being perfect.

Possibly the understatement of the decade.

 

[Atlas14]

US by far. Russia has a strong military, but mostly relies on sheer numbers for its muscle.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Proof please.

*shakes head* Mobbie, you're a riot.

Jprc, sensible post mate, stick around. Don't be bothered by the cheap shots and chest-thumping.

 

[jprc]

Fine. However, I would say there is as much evidence of them being hijacked as there is that they were simply given to the hezzies for their use. Now. What did the UN do about it? Answer: NOTHING.
Proof please.

My word.
And the one from the ambassador of Italia who was in Mogadishu/Mogadicio with me at this time (2001).
We were going to a meeting when we crossed the path of this Hummer. Not in great shape, and looking easily 10 years old (an "african" 10 years old) for saying the least, but still carrying a good load of "happy campers"...
We had both time to see a US logo in the back (but unable to note clearly the inscription in/around it) as the brownish paint was way too old and dirty.
To be fair, the Ambassador suggested that it is very probable that this car was seized by insurgents in 93, or simply left behind as a wreck as UN/US troops left, at some point in a hurry. No one knows. Perhaps the guys in it died, perhaps it was stolen, perhaps this car was left without engine and it is now propelled by a Nigerian Peugeot 504 engine. Every thing is possible.
But I was teasing you with this in my other post.
Simply for suggesting that WE DON´T KNOW.
You see a car/truck with a non conventionnal crew in it, and we comment on it.
In the case of the ambulances (I never saw the picture/film you refer to), are we sure that the people who were in it were not killed? There are thousands of project cars (UN, but also Donors, the EU, Country's aid agencies, NGOs, etc) and of course they are all defenseless.
UNOSOM/UNITA who were not US lost almost all equipment in Somalia in 1995. At the opposite of the US (who refused to load civilian equipments other than them due to lack of room ... and time), they had to be left behind has no cargo ship were able to take everything back (and safely). Most equipment was stolen at the time it was grouped for heading to embarking points. Officially, the equipment was hand over to the Somalian Government... Ok, it is a way to present things..

I am sure also you saw images of these ambulances in some regions of the word where, after a bombing, these ambulances are filled up with screaming people, "soldiers" with kalachnikov, etc.
For a quick viewer, it seems like they took the vehicle. In fact they are accompanying a corpse and calling / crying for vengeance. Actually the cars were going to an hospital, but the scene can be very confusing, and according to the angle, or the way a tv/journalist want to present things, you can have all subtitles under it.

We must be VERY cautious when trying to interprete images. There is always a story behind. And when images come from poor places, it is always a sad story.

 

[brennan]

I know you are a terrorist-pologist......but really now.

I know...maybe I mis-translated the big blue U and the N on the ambulance. Yeah...thats it.

Yes. Because it would be virtually impossible to paint a couple of letters on an ambulance wouldn't it? Doesn't the UN use black lettering? Did the UN run out of paint?

My point however is how do you know the ambulance was actually 100% under the control of the UN at the time. I've seen the film, in question and all I can see are Gunmen - about a dozen of them IIRC, and they do (IIRC) place a wounded colleague inside. Now do you have proof that UN staff were present and if you do can you prove that they were not being coerced (by all the men with guns) into 'helping'?

I think you need to get your facts 100% straight before you start throwing around the suggestion that the UN are happy to drive terrorists around the West Bank or wherever it was.

 

[MobBoss]

*shakes head* Mobbie, you're a riot.

Jprc, sensible post mate, stick around. Don't be bothered by the cheap shots and chest-thumping.

Since when is asking for proof a 'cheap shot'?

@Brennan: its things like this that make me question that explanation: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51265 when I see UN flags co-located with Hezbollah flags it rather gives me the impression that they are being based and working together. And if you google it you will see this wasnt the only instance or only photo of this.

So tell me...is a bunker that is flying both the hezbollah flag and the UN flag under hezbollah or UN control?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wasn't reffering to "proof please" when I mentioned cheap shot. You will notice that that wasn't directed at you, but at jprc. So, the sentence starting with "jprc" was directed at jprc. I know, I sometimes even confuse the heck out of myself.

The "proof please" just was funny comming from someone who uses a lot of anecdotal evidence.

Now if you will, I will point out the cheap shot:
"Possibly the understatement of the decade."

There it is.

The chest thumping is obvious I'd think, wouldn't you? If not, don't be shy to ask, I'll point that out as well. I'm always glad to help out.

 

[MobBoss]

I wasn't reffering to "proof please" when I mentioned cheap shot. You will notice that that wasn't directed at you, but at jprc. So, the sentence starting with "jprc" was directed at jprc. I know, I sometimes even confuse the heck out of myself.

The "proof please" just was funny comming from someone who uses a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I always will provide proof when asked for it, or clarify that it is merely my opinion or just personal experience in the absence of proof.

Now if you will, I will point out the cheap shot:
"Possibly the understatement of the decade."

There it is.

What you call a cheap shot is something I call the truth. If the truth hurts then /oh well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I always will provide proof when asked for it, or clarify that it is merely my opinion or just personal experience in the absence of proof.

So, what made you think what jprc was relaying was anything else than a personal experience? He said: "I also recalled having seen ..."
It doesn't get much clearer than this.

What you call a cheap shot is something I call the truth. If the truth hurts then /oh well.

Hurts No man, I said your truth is a riot

 

[MobBoss]

So, what made you think what jprc was relaying was anything else than a personal experience? He said: "I also recalled having seen ..."
It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Then of course he can state he has no proof other than his own experience. However, he offered this as a counter to my proof (which I can readily give, if need be) so that it seemed to me that he may have a photo or something of said somali warlords driving around in a hummer. I was just asking if he did have anything like that available.

Hurts No man, I said your truth is a riot

Why Ziggy, I had no idea you were such a fan of the UN. Tell me, when they do something like make Libya the head of the Human Rights Commission, do you find it funny....or just sad? And yes, this would be the same Libya that recently tortured Belgian aid workers because they thought they were spies.

When I see things like that, its precisely why I would say a comment like "the UN isnt perfect" to be an understatement of epic proportions.

 

[nc-1701]

Since when is asking for proof a 'cheap shot'?

@Brennan: its things like this that make me question that explanation: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51265 when I see UN flags co-located with Hezbollah flags it rather gives me the impression that they are being based and working together. And if you google it you will see this wasnt the only instance or only photo of this.

So tell me...is a bunker that is flying both the hezbollah flag and the UN flag under hezbollah or UN control?

Uh... Mobby? According to the filter my parents put on my comp your link is a porn site..
Now I like porn as much as the next guy, but that's not exactly the most trustworthy source of information...

Anyway it's a common (if underhanded) strategy to fly someone else's flag. During the Iraq invasion we lost a good numver of people to Iraqi troops who flew the American flag and opened fire when we got close iirc. I'm sure Hezbullah could easily get a hold of some UN flas to fly over their bases to protect them from being bombed. I know that's what I would do if I were them...

 

[MobBoss]

Uh... Mobby? According to the filter my parents put on my comp your link is a porn site..

You have over-protective parents. However, try googling 'hezbollah and UN flag' and see what you get.

Now I like porn as much as the next guy, but that's not exactly the most trustworthy source of information...

Its not a porn site. Your parents are just over-protective of you.

Anyway it's a common (if underhanded) strategy to fly someone else's flag.

Really? Did your parents tell you this? Is it equally as smart to fly someone elses flag and yours at the same time?

During the Iraq invasion we lost a good numver of people to Iraqi troops who flew the American flag and opened fire when we got close iirc.

Uh. No. We didnt. During the first part of the war, we didnt lose a good number of anyone. The initial invasion had more casualties due to accidents than to enemy fire.

Nice try. Now try again, but this time with facts.

I'm sure Hezbullah could easily get a hold of some UN flas to fly over their bases to protect them from being bombed.

Again, wouldnt that entail actually REMOVING the hezbollah flag to make sure of that???

I know that's what I would do if I were them...

And you would be commiting a warcrime. AFAIK flying a false flag like that is against the geneva and hague conventions.

 

[brennan]

So tell me...is a bunker that is flying both the hezbollah flag and the UN flag under hezbollah or UN control?

If you read the article it might be made entirely apparent to you by the phrase "We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces),", or does having their position taken by an armed terrorist group sound to you as though the UN are inviting them in for tea and scones?

I have no doubt that you are aware that terrorists use underhand tactics, so your eagerness to assume the UN is actively cooperating with them under these circumstances can only be viewed as utterly biased and distinctly mean spirited.

 

[MobBoss]

If you read the article it might be made entirely apparent to you by the phrase "We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces),", or does having their position taken by an armed terrorist group sound to you as though the UN are inviting them in for tea and scones?

Oh...and what did the UN do about it? Again, nothing. In fact, the UN itself denied that the hezzies were anywhere near UN emplacements....or did you just purposefully ignore that part of the story as well?

I have no doubt that you are aware that terrorists use underhand tactics, so your eagerness to assume the UN is actively cooperating with them under these circumstances can only be viewed as utterly biased and distinctly mean spirited.

*cough*. The UN nor the EU label Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Just so you know......

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then of course he can state he has no proof other than his own experience.

What else do you think he could possibly mean by: As I recalled?

Why Ziggy, I had no idea you were such a fan of the UN.

Why Mobbie, what made you think I was? Why do you think that just because I believe you made a cheap shot I have to be 180 degrees oposite of your opinion. maybe it would help to stick to what people write, instead of adding all sorts of things when it suits you

Even Jprc admits it isn't perfect, so I have no idea where you get your ideas from. I merely welcomed his posting style. <edit: nevermind>

I'm off for dinner now, and a fine wine. Have a nice day.