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Who here remembers MoM's Wraiths?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ShuShu62, Oct 20, 2010.

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Who here rememebrs MoM's Wratihs?

  1. What you talkin about my MoMma?

    40 vote(s)
    32.5%
  2. What are Wraiths?

    21 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. Boy, they really ruined the game for me

    8 vote(s)
    6.5%
  4. They were a fun exploit to discover, but I enjoyed the game anyway.

    54 vote(s)
    43.9%
  1. ShuShu62

    ShuShu62 Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    All this talk about horses being super units that ruin ciV keeps taking me back to the day when I introduced my Nephew to Master of Magic. I had him at 'Magic'.

    But I really grabbed him when I said... 'If you ever get depressed and just want to kick the snot out of the AI on the highest difficulty, 11 death magic books, magic only buildings, cast one set of wraths... enjoy'

    Boy, that game sucked!
     
  2. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

    Joined:
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    13,266
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I don't remember Wraiths being super OP.
    Shadow demons were though (ranged attack, regeneration, phasing, flying). They could kill any non-ranged non-flying unit.

    Also: Paladins (magic immunity vs any summoned creature).
     
  3. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
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    1,867
    Location:
    Goleta, California
    Ugh, I know right? I come back from College, and meet my MoM's new husband.

    Total wraith. He tried to level drain me at the dinner table. He's not even my real Dad!

    Life sucks, I think I'm gonna die, and then return to life in 1d4 minutes as a wraith under his command.
     
  4. kooboo

    kooboo Lurker

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    123
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    I voted "fun exploit" even I don't remember exploiting them at all. What I remember exploiting was absurdaly powerful heroes. No spells, soldiers, monsters could withstand the overwhelming might of them :)
    So many (different!) races, buildings, cultures, spells, monsters, troops, special locations (volcanoes, enchanted forests, ruins etc).
    Boy, I loved that game :)
     
  5. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
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    5,958
    Location:
    Nehwon
    I enjoyed MoM very much, though the bugs ultimately limited the amount of time I could play it (in the days before internet patching). Luckily Age of Wonders came along to satisfy my MoM craving.

    I only vaguely recall that some of the units were invulnerable to physical attacks... guessing that was the wraith.
     
  6. Songkok

    Songkok Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    60
    IIRC, wraiths are flying, non-corporeal, life-stealing units. it is the non-corporeal that gives the trouble. in which for each hit has 50% chance of failure, after which the wraith's defense can reduce it further, which oftens reduce to 0 damage.

    IMO, the heroes are truely the most "broken". my six heroes (champions) can just galivanating around the globle clearing all the ruins. Only groups of skydrakes are their match...

    UGH! when can we have our MOM2!!!
     
  7. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    674
    I still play MoM from time to time, it's the only reason I keep DOSBox. What a great game. Nothing since has come close to capturing it's feel.

    Of course, people would say it's a terrible game today. The AI was practically non-existent, there were tons of game-wrecking bugs, and the balance was non-existent. It would be reviled as an example of the trend of releasing unfinished games and fixing them with a patch, except MoM came at a time when getting a patch was much more difficult.
     
  8. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    725
    Was a great game.
     
  9. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
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    London
    Yes, the Wraiths were a fun way to play MoM. The best way to get them was to use all your spell picks on 11 death books and then you could take the Wraith spell right at the start without research. All you had to do was wait to get enough mana to cast the spell and you could start.

    The really powerful thing about the wraiths was that not only could they kill most of the early troops and life steal any damage from them, but any ordinary troops killed by them rose as Undead. You could then use the undead troops to garrison the city you just captured. It was fun a few times, just like rushing with Companions with the Greeks in Civ 5 is. But it soon gets old. MoM had lots of other interesting ways to win.
     
  10. Jolly Rogerer

    Jolly Rogerer Prince

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    402
    I loved turtling and making weapons and armor for my heroes, and then sending them out to destroy everything in their path.
     
  11. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    MoM and Age of Wonders were two truly classic games. I had a lot of fun with them in spite of the bad AI. I never cheesed out with the wraiths though. I remember my friend doing it on occasion though.

    I don't think horsemen in Shafer 5 are quite as bad as the wraiths were in MoM but the AI is certainly just as terrible. ;)
     
  12. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    I voted "were a fun exploit to discover, but I enjoyed the game anyway", although I don't actually think they were an exploit. There are much more powerful creatures in MoM, and there are a number of ways to counter wraiths: defend with undead units so that the wraiths can't use life stealing, protect your units against death magic, or simply field enough offensive power that the wraiths go down despite their life-stealing attacks.

    Wraiths are a rare spell and it takes a while to get them (if you get them at all). The popular "wraith exploit" hasn't become so popular because the wraiths are so powerful, but because there's a way to have a rare spell at the beginning of the game. You can do the same thing with shadow demons (imho even more powerful than wraiths due to regeneration, ranged attacks, and innate plane shifting), Torin (Incarnation spell), even basilisks and chaos spawns. The "trick" is always the same: Choose 11 spellbooks of one color, choose a powerful spell to start with, then cast it and win the game with it. This is possible because of a last-minute change in the game's design (chosen spells weren't supposed to be available from the beginning, the were just designed to be guaranteed to be researchable for you), which made the bonus for playing with 11 books overpowered. Since only the human player could do this, it wasn't really a problem though.

    Anyway, if an exploit makes the game less fun, I simply don't use it. The game was (and is) pretty fun without using exploits.

    And although it's a shameless self-plug, I'd like to place a link for the people who still play MoM because it might interest them: Plight - expanded/corrected help texts
     
  13. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

    Joined:
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    2,511
    Location:
    Babylon
    They're one of many, many fun exploits in that game. The balance in that game is so bad it's basically not possible to play it without exploiting SOMETHING.

    The difference between wraiths and horseman, however, is that you really have to go out of your way to exploit wraiths. Picking 11 books in death and getting them right from the beginning is clearly not a normal way to play. Whereas, anybody can use horseman, and they're available quite easily. You have to go out of your way NOT to research them early on.
     
  14. Peregrine

    Peregrine The Swift

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2001
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    433
    Location:
    The Nether Regions
    Played that game quite a bit when it came out. But I soon preferred to play on Myrror and use the dark elf race. All units had ranged magic bolts. They were about 6 times more expensive than any other race, but once you got together armies w/wizards and knights, they were unstoppable. Conquer Myrror, then go through a gate and conquer the other world. Paladin armies could be difficult, though. Myrror was more profitable. More crystals, more treasures, more experience.

    Loved those tactical battles too. I miss that in modern games. If it could be done then, it sure could be done now.

    Centurion, Defender of Rome also had strategic movement and tactical battles.

    I wrote to the company about the crashes and they sent me a free patch disk. Still have it.
     
  15. Unconquered Sun

    Unconquered Sun Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
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    1,462
    Another thing about MoM: knowing how to present buildings upkeep (unlike ciV).
     
  16. ShuShu62

    ShuShu62 Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    :goodjob:

    For the rest, The flame wars over ciV has been sending me back to play all the oldies. It is amazing how the industry has evolved. As Badtz Manu pointed out, those games would all uterly fail by today's standards, and he didn't even mention the graphics. :) (I am getting readdicted to them)

    Peregrine: Strategic warefare and tactical combat are everywhere today, but the scale and polish of the tactical maps has grown to make them unrecognizable.

    I think the internet is a real game changer. I enjoyed ALL of the strategies mentioned in this thread. I also enjoyed discovering them FOR MYSELF, just as I am sure we all did. The internet simultaneously heightens the enjoyment through community, but also detracts from it

    Anioch IV, I think the polish is why the AoW series never hooked me the way MOM did. AoW is too well balanced, the tactical combat too expansive. There are no exploits to find. :)

    Ahrimann, UncleJJ keyed on why the wratihs were more of an exploit than the shadow demons IMO. The Wraiths left the conquered cities garrissoned.

    Thanks all. :)
     
  17. Jharii

    Jharii King

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    Walled Lake, MI
    Same here.

    I am cut from the cloth that if I find an exploit, I make sure not to employ it.
     
  18. Badtz Maru

    Badtz Maru King

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
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    Of course picking 11 books of one color is a valid playstyle, that's why they coded the game to give you a unique bonus for using all 11 of your slots in one color. I usually play single color plus a trait, but I do the 11 books of the same myself to guarantee certain spells become available.
     
  19. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    And of course, if you picked 11 books of 1 color, you couldn't pick Myrran and be pwnage Dark Elves.
     
  20. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    They actually coded the game (originally) so that you couldn't start with rare or uncommon spells, in fact you couldn't even start with common spells. The spells that you picked went into your spellbook (among others), and you had to research them. The advantage of picking a spell was that you could be sure that this spell was in your book, and thus researchable. The manual still reflects this, and the game's readme states that they changed it. The 11-books bonus was designed to guarantee you one rare and two uncommon spells that you wanted, which you then had to research later.

    In a last-minute decision, they changed this design, and the picked spells are now already researched and available t you when you start the game. For the most part this didn't change much (except saving time), but it totally broke the 11-books bonus - you can now have a rare spell at the beginning of the game, which is extremely overpowered.

    I know that this is/was a popular playstyle, and it never got corrected. However, it is indeed (as pi-r8 said) an unintended playstyle, an exploit that arose from the implications of a last-minute change that wasn't thought through thoroughly. That doesn't change that it can be a lot of fun, of course. ;)
     

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