Who here remembers MoM's Wraiths?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ShuShu62, Oct 20, 2010.

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Who here rememebrs MoM's Wratihs?

  1. What you talkin about my MoMma?

    40 vote(s)
    32.5%
  2. What are Wraiths?

    21 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. Boy, they really ruined the game for me

    8 vote(s)
    6.5%
  4. They were a fun exploit to discover, but I enjoyed the game anyway.

    54 vote(s)
    43.9%
  1. the streak

    the streak Chieftain

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    Huh? 11 death was an acceptable way to play. Getting horseman early is definitely not an optimal strategy unless you intend to build and abuse horsemen. Horseback riding and Chivalry would be the last things I research were I not wanting to abuse horsemen, they don't lead to anywhere important in the tech tree until you get within reach of the Big Ben.
     
  2. Pratputajao

    Pratputajao Warlord

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    I dont know man I bought it over at GoG and love it!! I used to have it in DOSbox on my old Comp but now GoG has it for 5 dollars or something.

    Wraiths sucked becouse I couldnt use them becouse the sound file they use made the game crash every time! If an enemy had them that was the end of that game for me... (until I got it patched which was hard to get pre web early 90s )
     
  3. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    horseback riding is a classical era tech. No matter what civ or settings you use, it's always going to be available fairly early in the game. It's one of only 3 classical era units, along with catapults and swordsman. So avoiding horsemen is like avoiding 1/3 of possible units at that time. Also, horseback riding leads to chivalry which leads to banking, so you pretty much have to get it before you can go far into the renaissance.

    In MoM, wraiths are a "rare" spell. This is the second highest category of spells, which in civ V would the be modern age techs. The only way to start with a "rare" spell is to pick 11 books in one color- and this was added in at the last moment, which many people think is a bug.

    Imagine if, in Civ, there was one particular combination of setting you could use which allowed you to start with a mechanized infantry. That's a modern era tech, roughly as advanced as the wraith in MoM. Just think how broken that would be. Even the strategy of playing babylon and getting riflemen in 1000BC can't compare.
     
  4. sohvan

    sohvan Chieftain

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    There's a difference between there being an overpowered wizard build, and there being an overpowered overall strategy. If you wanted, you could make a LLLNNNCS mage with node mastery in MoM, and adapt to what you get or what you can trade for. The wraith thing is closer to saying that a specific civilization like China, France or Greece is overpowered. If I think the Greece are overpowered, I can choose not to play them, and still try to play in the best way possible. Balancing the Greece thus becomes a much bigger problem multiplayer wise, than it is single player wise.

    In CiV no matter what Civ you play, infinite city spam is nearly always the correct strategy. Stealing a worker is nearly always the correct strategy. Using luxury and open border trading for a profit in the early game is nearly always the correct strategy. Allying with a maritime civilization early is nearly always the correct strategy. Trading post spam is nearly always the correct strategy. The main terrain features that really seems to matter are luxury and strategic resources.

    Master of Magic wasn't a very balanced game at all, and it certainly had a lot of overpowered things. What made it fun was the huge amount of different strategy combinations you could use. Every game was different. Civ V is not only badly balanced, but also badly lacking in different strategies and fun decisions to make. For example early wonders are underpowered, so there is little point in going for one compared to more early expansion or army.
     
  5. Dun Malg

    Dun Malg Chieftain

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    You have to hand it to Simtex on that. MoM and MoO2 both used that same basic resource allocation system, and it worked pretty well. Even when the endgame was a big fat pain in the butt of multi-city or multi-planet micromanagement, it was still lightning fast. It's a shame they folded up so soon and never got to further develop the franchises. I still play both titles today.
     
  6. Jolly Rogerer

    Jolly Rogerer Prince

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    Yep, both those games rocked and both are still fun to play today. I'd love to see modernized versions of both with no significant changes, just some tweaking, better graphics etc.
     
  7. Greybriar

    Greybriar Prince

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    I never used the Wraiths exploit or chose Death Magic when I played Master of Magic. MoM is my favorite game of all time. I wish there would be an new release of the game that mainly updates the graphics without changing the basic game by "reimagining" it.

    Incidentally, if anyone is interested in playing the original Master of Magic, you can pick it up for $5.99 U.S. at Good Old Games.
     
  8. kooboo

    kooboo Lurker

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    (Snip)

    Highly doubt that occasional selling of a game on a independent site will do that.

    On a side note - the successor may be utter fail and huge disappointment even if the predecessor was a great game.
     
  9. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    It is not "abandonware" since it clearly hasn't been abandoned - Atari still holds the rights, and GOG is even selling the game right now. Even if it were "abandonware" is a term without any legal relevance, and posting links to downloads which violate copyrights might be a bit risky on a site has a clear zero-tolerance policy against piracy. Could you please remove the link?

    After all, less than 6$ at GOG, for a great classic game without any DRM whatsoever, really doesn't leave much justification for spreading illegal links around, does it? Also, think of it: The better games like MoM sell at GOG, the more probable may a successor become.
     
  10. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    I don't think that wraiths are that good against anything other than the early troops, swords, cavalry and longbows. As soon as you face troops on Myrror and top troops like paladins and hammerhands the wraiths can't lifesteal enough health (due to resistance) and so get killed. To say nothing of the chaos wizards zapping them with spells.

    On higher levels the wraiths have to be used carefully, they're no good at clearing nodes or ruins, you need a real army to do that. Their great strength is in wiping out the silly little stacks of 4 swords or whatever the AI sends at you. One or two wraiths and a darkness spell, and some others I forget the names of, and you can kill the stack, get 1 fame and 4 undead troops that cost zero upkeep in gold or food.

    You can also take over the non aligned cities once they have grown a big enough garrison to turn undead. The real benefit of wraiths is an economic one. You can build a Black Economy :satan: based on cities with an undead garrison and religious buildings. That lets you ramp the tax rate up to 2 per pop and also cast dark rituals to get double mana. Oodles of gold amd mana if you have the right races that can build either parthenon or cathedrals. It won't be much use using 11 death books with the Klackons :p

    There are two other fun (but broken ways) to play MoM I think I'll mention.

    One way uses 11 Life books and takes the rare spell Stream of Life. For 8 mana per turn that gets rid of all unhappiness in a city and doubles growth rate. With that and race that can build banks or merchant guilds you can make a monster ICS with cities of unlimited size (up to 25 pop depending on food) and of course you turn the tax rate up to the max of 3 per pop. Your best cities with a merchant guild and the Propensity spell can be making 200 gold a turn. The vast quantities of gold are used to rush buy stuff (2 gold = 1 hammer) and converted to mana (2 gold = 1 mana).

    The other way uses the two skills Runemaster and Artificer to make artifacts that cost 25% of the normal cost. You can sell those artifacts for half their normal cost and so if you have nothing better to do you should always be casting another junk artifact to cash in. This artifact economy really thrives with heroes which you can make super strong with the best artifacts in the game. The magical heroes can sit in your magic tower help you cast bigger and better artifacts. This is the best way to really get to know the artfacts and hero system in my experience. You can also take the nodemaster skill which has the same requirements as Runemaster and take out most nodes with your super (equipped) heroes. Epic battles and very OP :lol:

    For me MoM is about having a wide choice of very different strategies, even if the AI is pathetic and some parts of the interface appalling (city management menu :mad:). It has better gameplay than Civ 5 in many ways despite its great age.
     
  11. Alex_K

    Alex_K Chieftain

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    I preferred to use Alchemist (+Runemaster and Artificer) and found that since my troops had magical weaponry, a stack of 2 missile troops, a spearman and a swordsman could usually easily defend each (walled) city against even nasty wandering baddies like wraiths.

    Meanwhile I maxed my mana skills and spent time making lots of $ via making and breaking artifacts...eventually equipping each hero with a fine set of tailored magical equipment. This helped them become REALLY tough, tough enough to take out (perhaps with help from a handful of units) the tough nodes and lairs that might have such treasures as more spell books.

    :king:

    But yeah, MoM really needed to have a better AI. At least with Civ5 they are trying to improve it.
     
  12. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    There are so many things wrong with that game. It's buggy, it's crashy, half of death magic only works on the player, the AI is atrocious, diplomacy is fubar, it's full of exploits... and it is still my favourite tbs game ever.
    For one thing, I know of no other game that has the feel of such glorious escalation. Most of the lategame overland spells, flying invisible warships... and it feels real because the low-tech stuff doesn't necessarily become obsolete. Barbarian spearmen for example - which you can build from turn 1 - can be the units with the biggest punch in the game because every offensive buff is applied to 8 regular and 8 thrown attacks.

    I agree on wraiths being a bit of a gamebreaker. While they suck in tough fights compared to other rare summons, their ability to take over neutral cities indefinitely while leaving free garrisons gets you ahead with less risk compared to the alternatives.

    Still, there are other very powerful openings. Guardian Spirits with Invulnerability+Endurance are good enough to tear through the early game and move 4 squares overland. The same applies to Pathfinding Basilisks, and this doesn't even take up your rare spell which could be Gaea's Blessing for some serious economic staying power.
    11-book starts tend to be the best, but some mixed ones have their rewards as well... double-discounted artifacts for example can be abused for both military and economy.

    Incidentally: Dark Elves are entirely overrated. They grow slowly, they're the most hated race, their good offensive stuff requires quite a few buildings, you need to blow 3 picks on them and none of the myrror natives actually gets as much out of myrror's abundant mithril/adamantine as barbarians, high elves or halflings.
     
  13. KahunaGod

    KahunaGod Warlord

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    MoM and MOO2, ahhh, the glory days. You know what I loved about both? Tactical combat. Made them awesome. 2 games in one. I am going to GoG right now to buy them!


    I miss the days of great ideas and implementation over $ DLC $
     
  14. ShuShu62

    ShuShu62 Warlord

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    And many considered fun. Overbalance is not inherently bad, just as ICS is not inherently bad.

    It is easy to play without horsemen. The only question is whether there is any thing of interest to do without horseman.

    I find the argument that most of the buildings have no use far more compelling, than the xxx strategy is overpowered arguement. Especially as the follow up conversations have proven. One exploit is a problem, ten exploits = balance, because the exploits caounter each other out
     
  15. Moxx

    Moxx Chieftain

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    Someone has spent lots of time fixing up various AI&gameplay problems so for all of you MoM lovers you should check this out:

    http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4211

    I played numerous games so far and some of the changes have been great so far.

    My personal favorite:

    "Combat fixes
    - AI settlers (or other units) are now unable to flee during your first turn
    "
     
  16. Alex_K

    Alex_K Chieftain

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    Thank you Moxx! I downloaded the upgrade, figured out how to run it in DOSBox and started a game at the usual hardest settings....and promptly got beaten (for the 1st time) by the Fire Wizard sending over effective armies to take 2 of my 3 colony towns and then my home fortress town by an army of fire giants, hell hounds, chaos warped priests and a hero using magical armor and sword! Not only that, but Fireballs were used to wipe out my archers and a Doombolt used to take out my hero that had magical equipment enough to be troublesome to them.

    Since an effective AI can apparently be done for MoM, I suspect that with some work they may come up with an effective AI for Civ5.
     
  17. Knightly_

    Knightly_ Warlord

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    God Master of Magic is so awesome... beside its uncountable number of bugs and exploits one of the true masterpieces of tbs games. I still enjoy playing it now and then. Although it had only two victory conditions (kick everyones butt or cast spell of mastery) its replayability is one of the highest of all tbs games ever. This is due to the ability of creating your own wizard with different spellbooks and skills as well as many different play styles (use your races units, town spells, heros, summoned creatues, spell nodes etc or a combination of them).
     
  18. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

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    Oh my god, I freaking loved that game. I don't remember Wraiths so much, but definitely Paladins and super-promoted Halfling slingers or whatever they were called. Plus super-promoted heroes...I think Shuri the uh, archer or whatever was my favorite, plus the Chaos Warrior dude. Oh, and the Priestess. That game was so damn cool - wish they would come out with version 2!
     
  19. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

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    Damn you all, I bought MoM from GoG yesterday and spent 6 hours playing it instead of grading exams.

    I'd never heard of the Artificer + Runemaster + Alchemy combo before, but it seems pretty overpowered. I'm going to try it with Halflings as my race tonight. Only problem is the lack of books and therefore lack of great item abilities (like Regeneration and Chaos, 1/2 defense on weapons), but I suppose that helps balance it out a bit!
     
  20. Jolly Rogerer

    Jolly Rogerer Prince

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    IIRC you can just take runemaster and artificer and run your mana economy by simply making cheap weapons and breaking them on the forge for a mana profit. This gives you more selections for books (than choosing alchemy also) and works best with a race that has good gold production. Keep your spellcasting heroes in your tower city to increase your own spellcasting ability (you can cast half their mana per turn as your own). Make them items that increase their mana so that your own max per turn increases. This increases the amount of mana you make per turn as well as speeding your spellcasting.

    Eventually you will be able to afford really expensive items for your heroes. Heroes that have archery are particularly powerful, you can give them invis and flying and simply destroy most units in the game with no chance of being killed. You can actually turtle in your tower city and never found another, easily beating back enemy stacks until your own heroes are equipped, then go on a blitzkrieg and conquer the enemy with a couple of heroes.
     

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