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Who here remembers MoM's Wraiths?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ShuShu62, Oct 20, 2010.

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Who here rememebrs MoM's Wratihs?

  1. What you talkin about my MoMma?

    40 vote(s)
    32.5%
  2. What are Wraiths?

    21 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. Boy, they really ruined the game for me

    8 vote(s)
    6.5%
  4. They were a fun exploit to discover, but I enjoyed the game anyway.

    54 vote(s)
    43.9%
  1. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

    Joined:
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    I was going to try something like this with Life Drain, which is unfortunate because it means you can't take Life books. Basically, I've been reading that Life Drain increases your casting skill, so from the very beginning you can totally exploit the crap out of the Artificer + Runemaster combo.

    Since the combo lets your break items and get back twice what you used to make them, it essentially adds mana equal to your casting skill to your pool per turn. Since the limiting factor is casting skill, if Life Drain works the way people say it does, you can start pumping your casting skill a lot starting with your very first fight. So that combo should mean a REALLY steep increase in mana generation very early, and with Alchemy you can convert to gold and back 1-to-1, so you can rush buy pretty much any of the early buildings!

    At least, that's how I think it will work...
     
  2. YoHo

    YoHo Warlord

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    Yes, yes and yes.

    MoM is the sole reason I have DOSBox. Probably my second favorite 4x to Civ of all time. With MOO being 3rd.

    Age of Wonders was no substitute.
     
  3. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    I don't think Alchemy is a good choice for this style of play unless you pick a race that can't build an alchemist guild (e.g. Lizards). I never need to convert gold to mana or vice versa, with some careful management the two sides of the ecomony manage on their own.

    I find Nodemaster to be the ideal choice of a skill, it only costs 1 pick and it means taking nodes is easy and you get double mana from them, making them twice as good. With Nodemaster the nodes are the main source of your mana by a long way and I dump most of it into increasing my Casting Skill early on, letting me cast the artifacts faster. Then when you get Summon Hero spell you summon more heroes to use more artifacts and the whole thing snowballs.

    To pick Runemaster you need 2 chaos books, 2 nature books and 2 sorcery books, so Nodemaster is another easy pick. That leaves you with only 2 optional picks and Alchemy is not as good as more spell books IMO. I usually pick an extra nature book and a sorcery book. Those picks mean I can make artifacts that have pathfinding and/or flight long before the spells can be researched. Those two artifact abilities massively improve your heroes. Having heroes that that can move 16 tiles across any terrain (including water with water walking) is insane and they can give pathfinding to the rest of the stack (so 2 move units like hellhounds, stag beetles and paladins can move 4 tiles). So your main stacks are not restricted by roads. The flight ability in an artifact is useful when fighting nodes full of grounded creatures (e.g. great wurm) and lets the heroes pick them off at leisure.
     
  4. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    There are so many strong openings that it's hard to tell which of these is 'overpowered' compared to the alternatives.

    Double-discounted artifacts are definitely fun, whether you squeeze in Node Mastery or a focus on Death (hint: If you want to use the Drain Life synergy, try to make a hero capable of casting Black Prayer asap. Or Mind Storm if that's an option somehow).
    Alchemy isn't useful so much because you can transform your 'free' mana into gold in the late game, it's useful because it's an alternative to Drain Life cheese for getting your casting skill up quickly (mana on skill, cast from gold).

    While I'm not convinced either implementation is as reliably powerful as a good 11-book start, you have a strong mechanic you can rely on and the spread of books can mean excellent trading/looting opportunities.
     
  5. Alex_K

    Alex_K Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
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    One thing that might be usefully borrowed by Civ5 from MoM is the idea of tactical combat. This lets units stack strategically, but doesn't allow them to stack tactically. Plus having tactical combat might (if properly done) resolve the range problem of archers outranging rifles.

    In MoM I usually customize the topless female Sharee (more fun to watch visuals when learning spells etc.) and select 2 Life; 2 Nature; 2 Sorcery; Alchemist; Artificer; Runemaster and Warlord. Sometimes High Men, sometimes halflings, rarely some other race. This has the disadvantage of having a slow start, but one can potentially eventually get the most powerful armies and heroes this way. It does help a lot if one can be first to loot the nodes and lairs...hopefully getting more retorts. Life is particularly useful in that the Heroism spell applied to new Heroes does wonders in improving them.

    In the game I am currently playing I have acquired in play 1 Life; 2 Chaos and Chaos Mastery thru clearing out treasures and I expect to get more. [If I was willing to save before each battle and replay if the loot or result didn't please me I would likely get these much more quickly and easily.] If I have the patience I sometimes just knock off the opponents when I've made sure they can return [Casting the Spell of Return] and hopefully picking up a spell of theirs each time I take their fortress town.

    I try to end the game as powerful as it is possible to get.

    One change I would like to see in MoM is to make it impossible for magically immune units (yes Paladins) to get healing in the middle of a battle or magical boosts anytime. Having magical equipment is fine...but being magically immune those boosts and healing spells should slide right off without effect. This change would make it a better balanced game if it could be implemented.
     
  6. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    I have never used Life Drain much before so I tried this and it is not a strong way to increase your casting skill, at least in the early game. Each HP you drain from a target adds 3 mana to the total needed to increase your casting skill, so it is the same as adding 3 mana. But using Life Drain is a very hit or miss affair, often doing little or no damage unless you dump a lot of extra mana into the spell. It doesn't seem worth spending 50 mana (more with overland casting penalty) to kill a sword unit (6 HP) and get 18 mana worth of contribution to the next level of casting skill.

    I used Articifer + Runemaster with 3 death books (taking Life Drain and Ghouls) to see how it worked out. It was a weird cross between my normal Artifact economy (based on heroes with silly OP artifacts) and my Black or Undead economy using wraiths to take over cities and leave an undead garrison and high tax rate. The heroes couldn't just attack nodes easily using off colour spells (without Nodemaster) and didn't move as fast without access to pathfinding and flight abilities and the death books didn't add anything worthwhile to the artifacts in compensation.

    Of course I didn't have wraiths but the ghouls could do the same job at a high mana cost. I could take over a neutral city losing about 3 ghouls with hero and my wizard's support and that would turn most of the garrison undead. Losing 240 mana per city is too expensive to do normally but the mana for the ghouls could be raised by breaking junk artifacts and that worked quite well. Cities (some with Dark Ritual) replaced nodes as the main source of mana used to boost casting skill.

    As I wrote above casting Life Drain with my wizard is expensive and not very useful. But my casting heroes, with their artifacts, made good use of it. It turns the unit undead if it kills at least half the HP and gives the stolen HP to the casting hero. Several times when my hero was zapped by a Psionic Blast my hero would recover the lost HP and more by dumping a 45 mana Life Drain into a unit that then rose from the dead afterwards. A good tactic for picking off the endless stream of stragglers the AI sends, drain the other wizard of mana, and create more undead, as long as the other wizard can't kill the hero with his spells ;)
     
  7. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

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    Also for Betrayal at Krondor and Stellar 7.

    And yes, Wraiths were a total exploit. That game was full of them, and that's why I think it was so much fun.
     
  8. jihe

    jihe Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
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    11 anything was fun, 11 sorcery for flying invisible warships, 11 life for Thoren,11 life for gorgons,11 chaos for chaos spawns....
     
  9. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
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    After 4-5 more games trying different combinations, I'm finding Alchemy to be pretty awesome. You start with 75 gold and 0 mana, and the cheapest artifact costs 38 mana. You can start building that artifact right away with Alchemy, while setting your reserve to 0 and putting everything into casting skill. Then once you have 1-2 Magic Spirits out scouting, you convert all of your artifact mana generation into gold, to rush buildings and get your overpowered units or early Settlers out.

    So the two-way conversion is pretty critical for that opening. Also, in the mid-late game it seems like there's always a huge excess of gold, but you can never have enough mana, so it's good to not lose 50% when you're converting 2,000-3,000 at a time.

    The extra 10% to-hit with no Alchemist Guild is also huge in the early game, especially with Slingers!

    You can actually get Runemaster with 2 books from any three schools, but yeah, if you're getting Node Mastery, it doesn't make sense to split them any other way, I guess.

    Yeah, my experimenting didn't work out so well. It doesn't do nearly as much for casting skill as I thought, and it's expensive early in the game. Doesn't seem like it's worth giving up Life books just for Life Drain.

    Lately I've been going 2 Life, 2 Chaos, and 2 Sorcery with Alchemy, Artificer, Runemaster, and Warlord, taking Holy Weapon and Eldritch Weapon with Halflings. Then using the ridiculous amounts of early gold/mana to make a scouting Spirit and rush all the early gold/food buildings and veteran Slingers.

    Two Slingers with Holy and Eldritch Weapon can take out any early neutral town and most enemy capitals. Ridiculous. The only problem is that they're slooooow, but with the spirit scouting, you at least can minimize the time it takes to get there.
     
  10. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    Sure I do that too when I have Alchemy, but I find it doesn't make that much difference after the first few turns and that's a poor reason to miss out on another pick. I try to keep 100 gold in the bank so I can hire a hero (3% chance per turn, then 1% for second hero). Getting heroes is the most interesting and worthwhile thing about using Artificer + Runemaster combo. Any spellcasting heroes soon kick the artifact economy off and it can generate large amounts of mana including that locked up in its artifacts.
    I don't find this shuffling resources between mana and gold to be that important. The key is to get the artifact casting underway and there is soon plenty of mana. My surplus gold is used to rush buy buildings in my cities to kickstart them and get more research and mana buildings

    You're right, I was trusting to my memory. ;)

    Wow! you do things so differently from how I would :lol: That's the beauty of this old but exceptionally good game. I wish Civ 5 was as good :p

    Playing with Halflings is about getting their 2 strongest units to perform well. The Slingers are great, everyone prizes them but they're expensive and vulnerable, you have to look after them. The swordsmen are amazing, much better than ordinary swordsmen, especially with Alchemy and they can look after themselves and are expendable. Eight figures per unit and lucky, that means regular and veterans get 24 swords attack and 50% hit chance. Elite Halfling swords get obscene, with 8 more attack, +1 to hit and 8 more HP. Swords can be made in almost any city and cost 30 hammers while slings cost 100 hammers and need more buildings. Add heroism to a sword in combat and watch it butcher a load of troops costing twice as much

    You chose Warlord and that's good but overkill, Heroism is better, both as the enchantment and cast in combat by heroes. I would have picked 3 life, 2 chaos and 3 nature books, selecting Heroism, Holy Armour, Hellhounds, Web and Resist Elements (or Giant Strength). I cast heroism on my new slingers, immediately making them much harder to kill and they get 32 slingshots at 60% (minus range penalty). I cast heroism on one sword in my stack leaving the others as targets and blockers that soak up experience and make it to elite the hard way. I usually have about 4 times as many swords as slingers. Hellhounds are much better than Eldritch Weaponary, giving Halflings a sort of cavalry substitute they lack. With and artifact driven economy the mana for heroism and hellhounds is no problem. We play these so differently :lol:

    My heroes have an artifact with Pathfinding (needs 3 nature books) and that speeds up my stacks of 6 swords and 2 slingers a great deal, doubling off road movement. By racing the hero around it can often speed up several halfling stacks in the same turn.
     
  11. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

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    Huh, really good point about swords. It never occurred to me that you could get over 3x as many swords as slingers for the same cost. I'll have to give that a try...hopefully the upkeep costs won't sink the economy/mana pool.
     
  12. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Yes, they are both excellent games. "Balance" exists in neither. MoM is fun because it's a sandbox; there's an almost infinite number of highly entertaining ways to punch the AI's face in, so you're limited only by your creativity. MoO2 has a few extremely overpowered locally optimal strategies, but otherwise yields up a surprisingly competitive game. It has two big flaws. The three local optima (Teleblitz, Demovore, UniTol) have a clear Rock, Paper, Scissors dynamic, which makes multiplayer amongst skilled players fairly pointless. Worse, optimal play requires major micro and the same boring building sequence.

    But both were head and shoulders above their competition.

    Surprised that no one has mentioned going Myrran for Adamantium Slingers yet. Several of those, Warlord and a few Life books for the key troop buffs slaughter anything.
     
  13. Roald Amundsen

    Roald Amundsen Warlord

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    The Time Stop Spell! Now that was really funny and a guaranteed win when you got it :) Oh and the nice music... Fantastic game!
     
  14. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    I rarely pick a Myrran race to start with. They're all unpopular masters, and several Arcanian races can make far better use of easy Adamantium: give me Barbarians, Halflings or High elves any day... or possibly High Men although those take a while to get going.

    From a combat point of view, I'd actually like High Elves best: Longbows are cheaper than slingers and usually deal even more ranged damage if they get to empty their quivers. Of course, they are a lot more fragile.
    Elven Lords get a truly ridiculous amount of first-striking power, if you even need to get there. The only downside is that High Elves are rather unwelcome on Myrror.

    *

    I definitely agree on MoM being a glorious sandbox that doesn't even need balance.
     
  15. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

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    Adamantium + Slingers = DEATH FROM AFAR. There really is no better use of adamantium. So good. So, so good.

    I went to a "Fellowship of the Ring"-viewing party tonight, which is slightly sad for a Friday night. The saddest part, though, was getting to the part where two of the hobbits were throwing rocks at orcs and thinking "they should really get some slings and own some face."
     
  16. Kissamies

    Kissamies Prince

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    Never discovered that particular tactic. Death magic isn't my style and neither is choosing 11 books. There are many such tactics though. 'Tis a sandbox game.

    Yeah! I believe Stardock owns the rights, but they decided to make Elemental instead. Ugh!
     
  17. kekekeke

    kekekeke Chieftain

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    I laugh at your puny death magic!

    warlord + heroism + paladins ftw! ;)
     
  18. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    No, Atari owns the rights. Stardock tried to obtain a license for creating MoM2, but the deal fell through because Atari wanted more control (including ownership of the complete code) than Stardock could reasonably give them, so Stardock called their game Elemental instead.
     
  19. Pratputajao

    Pratputajao Warlord

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    Yeah I was upset when I heard Atari was being unreasonable and Stardock gave up. What we got from them was a mess of a game that doesnt remind me of MoM one bit. Elemental was a huge disapoinment on MANY levels. I know they say they are going to improve it but in my mind that would mean a complete rehaul of the game to make it ANYWHERE as good as MoM. Stardock failed almost beyond recovery if you ask me.
     
  20. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

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    11 Sorcery or 11 Life; and High Men.
     

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