[C3C] Who knows programmers who can edit C3C?

Klaus Meier

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Me and a friend play C3C for many years. Using the editor we made our own mod with dozens of new units and buildings (we are going to publish it, but the civilopedia needs to be edited 1st).

However know we would like to make modifications which surpass the limits of the editor.
E. g. we would be very happy adding the caravans of Civ2. Or enable a 2nd wonder time. We have many ideas, even more complex ones like adding currencies.
Therefore we are in search of programmers who are able to realize this. Of course we are willing to pay for the efforts.

Can you connect us with programmers who can edit C3C beyond the limitations of the editor?
 
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His name is @Quintillus, and he's written a brilliant editor, all but unimaginably far and beyond you might imagine possible. His thread for this masterpiece can be found HERE.

Despite having done so for Civs 4&5, Firaxis refused to release the source code for Civ3, even when offers were made for it which were (almost certainly) above market value.

We have all been frustrated by many items not "carried over" from Civ2 - and which, plainly and simply put, simply cannot be implemented in Civ3.

That being said: alongside Quintillus Is our resident Magus Of Modding, @Civinator, whose mastery of what can be done is simply breathtaking, as witnessed by his CCM2 Epic Mod.

- And, of course, Welcome aboard! :)
 
Can you connect us with programmers who can edit C3C beyond the limitations of the editor?
Not directly, but in addition to Ozy's post, you might also like to have a look at the "useful patches" thread posted by the no-longer-active CFC-user @Antal1987.

Although he hasn't done the specific things you asked for, he did manage to add some functions to the conquests.exe that were broken in the original (the "Age of Science"), or that weren't there before (enabled cities to be placed directly adjacent, also with a larger "FatCross" — although that latter didn't work properly, by all accounts).

Unfortunately he didn't/couldn't fix the submarine-bug (which was fixed in the later patches of the civilization3X.exe for PlayTheWorld, but broken again in Conquests/Complete), nor could he do anything about the AI's continued inability to use land-based artillery-units.
 
Thank you very much for these answers, Ozymandias and tis282. That is a good start!

I didn't find it directly. So: Do you have links to explanations how to edit the civilopedia, too?
 
I didn't find it directly. So: Do you have links to explanations how to edit the civilopedia, too?
Just open it in any text-editor.

The form of the entries should be fairly self-explanatory: you can use the existing entries as templates/guides for new entries for your added buildings/units; these new entries can simply be added on at the end of the relevant section(s).

You will also need to edit the "pediaicons.txt" file, to tell the game where to look for the graphics (and animations and sounds) for anything new that you've added. Again, the new entries can be built relatively easily, based on the existing entries.

If you need specific step by step instructions, I did once find a thread called "How to win at Sid" (or something like that) that was actually a tutorial describing how to add a supercharged new civ-specific unit, a new building, and a new Wonder to the game, and relevant entries to the civilopedia and pediaicons files (and then by picking that Civ to play, the human player could win at Sid!).

Can't relocate it right now, of course...
 
Klaus Meier, where have you been in the internet during all the decades since the release of Civ 2 and Civ 3 ?

To find programmers to write an updated Civ 3 (or at least to fix the remaining bugs of C3C) would be a dream, but in the past all efforts to get the C3C source code did fail (Ozy can tell you a thing or two about it). Most of us are only normal modders, but there are/were a few civers, who created something that is above normal modding, mostly done by hexediting.

Patches:

In my eyes the first of them is skyer2, who created the no-raze patch, saving cities on fixed maps from beeing razed by the AI. A present update of this patch was created by Tsubasanut, also adding the no-unit-limit patch (more than 8192 units) and the fix of the magenta beam in the C3C civilopedia. It can be found here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ccm2-epic-mod.625812/page-32#post-15755612
There also exists a patch trying to add a no-city limit to C3C (more than 512 cities) , but it seems that this patch unfortunately has a lot of issues.

The most important patches were done by Antal1987 (a link was provided in the posts above). He not only fixed several errors that Firaxis was never able to fix themselves (among them the graphical civilopedia glitch with the magenta beam in the images and the scientific age error). His exe 4 is part of the inofficial C3C expansion CCM2.50 and from reading his posts commenting his patches I think he would be the civer knowing most ( but of course far away from all) about the C3C coding.

Editors:

The Firaxis editor 1.03 (that is part of Civ 3 Complete) should be avoided, as it holds a bug eliminating scientific leaders in mods or scenarios, when their biqs were closed last by this editor. If you want to use a Firaxis editor, you should use the Firaxis editor 1.00, that doesn´t have that bug. A very old upload of editor 1.00 can be found here.

Much better (and my present C3C standard editor) is the Quintillus editor. A link to that editor was provided in the posts above. This editor allows settings that cannot be achieved by the Firaxis editors (among them worker units, that can be set to do only one worker job, adding additonal LM terrain and teleport options and setting deepwater harbors on fixed maps and an amazing function to transfer maps with different settings of resources in the biqs).

Another very interesting editor is Steph´s editor. Unfortunately until now I had no opportunity to make an indeep test of it, but I hope this time will come in the future.

Tutorials:

For adding units, buildings and leaders to your mods/scenarios, you should visit the following tutorials at CFC in the tutorial forums:

Units: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/adding-units-to-c3c-thorough-guide-for-the-newbie.71114/

Buildings: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-to-add-improvements-and-wonders-in-c3c.83122/

Leaders: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tutorial-how-to-add-a-new-leader-in-the-game.94754/

As Klaus Meier (unfortunately not Sid Meier :)) sounds like a very common German name, here are two links to German Civ 3 tutorials:

A tutorial about basic Civ 3 modding, that can be found here: https://www.civforum.de/forumdisplay.php?520-Civ3-Anleitungen-Tutorials and

a tutorial about advanced Civ 3 modding, written by me many years ago, that can be found at the same place.

Details:

Caravans, so not exactly working like Civ 2 caravans (as they can only be sent to cities of the same civ), can be created on fixed maps in C3C by the reverse capture the flag option (example the scenario AoI, created by El Justo) and for random maps by using the capture the princess option (example the mods CCM or RARR). The AI is using these options, but far away from perfect, so the values for those 'caravans' should be set low.

Textfiles:

Labels text
: The steam version of Civ 3 Complete should be avoided, as this version 'overnight' added an additional line into its labels text file, playing havoc with the texts used in all normal mods and scenarios. The GOG version of Civ 3 Complete doesn´t have this very annoying bug and normal mods and scenarios can be played here without these problems.

PediaIcons text:

The pediaicons file is much more important, than the civilopedia text file. A C3C mod or scenario can be played without a civilopedia text, but not without a working pediaicons file. Additionally the pediaicons file holds many of the link adresses, that are used in the civilopedia text file (additional link adresses can be set in the civilopedia file).

Civilopedia text:

If you set words in brackets [word], this word appears in kursiv letters. The use of this kind of brackets {word} lets the text appear in bold letters. This sign ^ stands at the start of a new line. Links are created like that, using terms of the pediaicons file or additionally from the civilopedia itself: $LINK<Saltpeter=GOOD_Saltpeter>
Don´t use too many links in a civilopedia entry. If your civilopedia entry for a unit, a building or something different, holds more than 32 links, the hyperlink bug is triggered.

Example for the civilopedia entry of a unit (#PRTO_ starts the civilopedia entry of the stats of the individual unit, the entry #DESC_PRTO_ starts the description of that unit):

#PRTO_Ottoman Line Infantry
^{Type:} Offensive/Defensive Unit
^
^{Civs:} Turkey
^
^{Attributes:}
^ * $LINK<Movement Restrictions=GCON_Movement Handicap>: Mountains, volcanoes, marshes (no roads).
^ * $LINK<Airlift=GCON_Airlift>
^
^{Prerequisites}:
^ * $LINK<Saltpeter=GOOD_Saltpeter>
^
^{Upgrades to:} $LINK<Ottoman Rifleman=PRTO_Ottoman Rifleman>
^
#DESC_PRTO_Ottoman Line Infantry
^Line infantry is ...
 
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Despite having done so for Civs 4&5, Firaxis refused to release the source code for Civ3, even when offers were made for it which were (almost certainly) above market value.

We have all been frustrated by many items not "carried over" from Civ2 - and which, plainly and simply put, simply cannot be implemented in Civ3.

They say the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Well, I'm crazy.

What if we approached them again now that it's several years later?

1. We've seen that they can make changes to the core game (the incompatibilities with labels.txt on the steam version shows this) which shows at the very least that the source code probably isn't "lost".
2. Someone posted fairly recently showing that Civ3 still "sells" to some extent on platforms such as Steam and GOG, while not impacting the sales of newer titles.
3. Platforms such as Steam offer a good way for them to distribute an update as DLC with minimal marketing overhead on their part, and this is significantly more developed that however many years ago we last approached them.
4. Plenty of older titles across the board are successfully getting remastered/rebooted with extra content showing that it is a viable market tactic.
 
I'm no longer in touch with my classmate who was on the board of (I think it was then) 2K Games - and the price they turned down - 6, 7 years ago? - was $100,000 US.

My guess is that it is now such a minor part of their current inventory that it's not worth anyone's time in "Corporate Cost/Benefit Analysis Land" to even mull over the matter.

C'est la guerre.
 
Ah, here we go again. It's been a while since we had one of these discussions. ;)

There are a few hackers (a term I use with the best possible intention) still chipping away at what's possible with C3C, but after this long I doubt we'll see anything fundamentally new arise. Save-game monitoring shows some promise with the ability to edit rules during a game, but it doesn't unlock anything that wasn't already available in the editor. The exe patches already mentioned were the most advanced work, and they were pretty hit-or-miss. While they did produce some nice fixes, that method is of limited practical use because it's complex, error prone, and a rare skill even among programmers. Not that I don't appreciate what they've done. It's just not a very reliable solution.

There is another way. There's no technical reason a team couldn't duplicate the game from scratch in a way that's more or less compatible with our community content. It's been tried several times and petered out early for one reason or another, but it's not an especially unrealistic project with today's technology and our knowledge of the source material. Several games from that era have been remade as open-source clones or homages in the meantime including AoE2, Red Alert, Imperium Galactica, Rollercoaster Tycoon 2, and Morrowind. Not to mention FreeCiv has famously pulled it off with Civ2.

Now I'm not quite saying "hey guys, let's just make our own Civ3" (okay, maybe my avatar is saying it), just that it's plausible.
 
Ah, here we go again. It's been a while since we had one of these discussions. ;)
[...]
Now I'm not quite saying "hey guys, let's just make our own Civ3" (okay, maybe my avatar is saying it), just that it's plausible.

Before I became ill, I rallied a bunch of us to do this under the umbrella of a 501(c3) (non-profit corp.) @Blue Monkey even dreamed up what I thought was a great name for the company:
"Trylon and Perisphere."

I still have a few basic bottom up surprisingly simple thoughts which, if fleshed out, I believe can essentially generate "emergent behavior" which would upgrade "AI" behavior by about 1,000%. My only concern remains the possibility that the reason for Firaxis modifying the Flicster header was to patent it - which, if necessary :cooool: I can easily research.

Also, I think (it's been a long time since I was a programmer)that there's still "room" in the game's header. No one has laid "fresh eyes" on antal1987's code in 7 years - but he did post all of his code on GitHub.
 
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It would be cool if people wanted to remake the game.
There probably just aren't enough programmers left to do it. Steph once offered to, but his salary was too large to pay ^_^
Maybe if it became a Kickstarter/public funding project, it might work. At any rate I could provide static gfx or animations for some stuff (assuming we also have some city animation etc).
 
(Oz puts on his ex-Wall Street hat ...) My original thought had been to form a not-for-profit company - a "501(c)(3)" - for educational purposes (I can elaborate, should anyone desire.)

I also believe that I've thought of a way to build "intelligent" behavior into a "C3+," using all of the components we have we already have at our disposal (tiles; resources; etc.) Even better: It's possible that what I have in mind for C3+'s decision making (in-game choices) can be built from the "ground up." Meaning that simple algorithms, built around existing game concepts, could result in "emergent behavior" - something like how a bee colony's sophisticated behaviors are built upon the interactions of extremely simple "components."

So, @WildWeazel - Indeed, yes, quite plausible.

I remain very "energy challenged," yet ... :think:
 
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