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Who plays as Churchill?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Roughcut, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    I hope you ment "instant Drill I + Cover / Pinch" promoted Redcoats :) .
     
  2. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I hope you are joking. You can never have enough First Strikes!
     
  3. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Maybe if you want to make the game arificially harder for you ^^
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Yes, because clearly units become weaker the more first strikes they get. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    They do. A Drill I + Pinch unit is way stronger against a typical Musket or Rifle, than a Drill II unit is.

    Drill II is at a maximum on par with Combat Promotions, so it gives 10% more str, but Pinch / Cover and similar give 25%.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Let's assume a typical scenario. You got Rifles, the opponent has Muskets.

    Then Drill II is something like Combat II at most, so the 14 STR Rifle gets up to 16.8 STR. If the Musket has Drill / Combat + Pinch though, the real STR of the Rifle is 12.6 because the 25% get deducted from the Rifle. Combat then is 12.6 vs. 9.9.

    Now lets assume the Rifle has Drill I + Pinch, numbers would be 11.55 against 7.425.

    Difference should be actally easy to check, 12.6 vs 9.9 is about 25-30% advantage for the Rifle. 11.55 vs 7.425 however is a little more than 35% for the Rifle.

    And I could have choosen much worse scenarios, like Cuirrassiers with Pinch against Grenadiers without Formation, or Muske-cannon vs Rifles. In those examples, Pinch would shine even more, while Drill would suck even harder.

    It's not like Drill units have no place in a stack, having a few from them to absorb more collateral is great, but that's the exception to how the rest of the SoD should be specced.
     
  7. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    With Protective leaders, you should aim to promote through the Drill line, and add a smattering of Pinch/Shock/Formation specialists for stack defense. The goal is to reach Drill IV ASAP: Drill IV units win battles as frequently as Combat IV units, but receive less damage in the process (for quicker warring) and gain more XP. Churchill can reach Drill IV and then Pinch very quickly.

    Drill IV is the best combat related promotion in the game (March and Medic III offer more overall). It is only weak when the AI has a large number of Cuirassiers (earlier: Knights) and you are fighting with Muskets (earlier: Xbows). There are also a small number of AI that love to build inordinate numbers of Flanking II Cavalry, which can spell the end of Drill stacks, but this is rare. Genghis, Cyrus, and Willem are the worst, in my experience.

    As attack promotions, Pinch and Shock are best used to promote troops that are about to enter difficult battles against the top defenders. This is most often an issue when there is insufficient siege support (e.g. a draft Rifle war, simply breaking out against a runaway AI) or, in the late game, when you are using Marines against Mechanized Infantry, and have insufficient Fighters.

    I *think* Drill IV is stronger than Drill III + Pinch, but it may vary with the defender and defensive terrain.
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    @ Doshin:

    I'm currently too busy to make a test-game, maybe someone else can show us? I also believe that Drill IV is an extraordinarily strong promotion, but I also believe that the first 3 Drill promotions give less than Combat, and Pinch / Cover / etc. are actually no brainers for me, because 25% is just a huge bonus!

    If noone is willing to create a test-game, I will do so in a few days. I also wanna know how strong Drill really is. What I suspect, is, that Drill 1-3 are actually really weak, so a unit would have to gather a lot of experience before Drill would start to shine.

    Again, not saying Drill doesn't have it's place in the game, Drill units are great against Collateral.
     
  9. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Barracks+Vassalage+Theocracy = 7/8 XP Redcoats with Drill III right out of the gate, needing to survive only one fight for Drill IV. Then again you can't use it simultaneously with drafting unless you substitute Vassalage for a settled GG.
     
  10. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Doesn't it also matter how strong units you are fighting? Against equal or stronger pinch/cover might be better, but on the defense against a massive stack of inferior units drill will do better as they can fight a lot of battles without taking any damage at all.
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Not drafting Rifles is bad play. Even assuming, that one could not draft them and had to whip them, I run Buro + Theocracy in most games and only very seldomly Vassalage, because the Civic usually is quite weak. Free units are dependant on population, and in war-games, one doesn't have that much population because one would whip them away. +2 XP bonus is nice sometimes, but nothing compared to 50% :commerce: + :hammers: from a good capital.
    I can imagine, that Vassalage is more interesting, if one has an overall poor capital, but then again, one should move the Palace.

    You're right, if units are a lot weaker, Pinch and Cover don't do too much because they're %-based and get subtracted from the unit of the opponent. The scenario you describe though, is one I don't know from my games, because usually, I'm the one that attacks. Then still, one of the best things of Drill is, that the units often take no dmg at all, otoh, Combat + whatever let's them win more fights, so fewer losses, and against an equally advanced opponent, that's superior.

    At the point where oneself has Rifles and the opponent doesn't, the game is usually won shortly after.
     
  12. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Drill is better when you are a lot stronger or a lot weaker than the opponent.
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    I don't think that this is true. Drill is better when you're a lot stronger than the opponent, but if you're weaker, the 25% promotions subtract even more than they would do from equal units.

    Another argument against Drill btw. is (no idea if someone wrote this already) : Drill has little to no benefit when fighting against mounted units.
     
  14. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    Pinch, cover... they're not bad for stack protection, on separate units to add a combat or drill promo, but both on the same unit that's going to attack something in the field? No, ta - gimme Combat II, only 5% weaker than Cover against archery units (which rifle equivalents are going to eat anyway), and the bonus neither obsoletes nor can be worked around by unit matchups.
     
  15. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Yea but no cos Cyrus. I'll take regular combat V rifles / infantry instead.

    Also Liz can bulb to Rifling much much faster than Churchill, while Victoria gets a much stronger early game with quicker cities and cottages.
     
  16. Ambidexter

    Ambidexter Edjumacated Idjit

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    Right now I'm playing Theodora in a C2C mod game, only she's called "Fifi LaVavoom."
     

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