Who should be able to call themselves an engineer?

[ainwood]

I noticed that there are a few engineers registered here, so thought I would run this poll.

In my line of work (raping and pillaging mother earth for her resources), most people know what an engineer actually does. However, the term is being used very loosely these days, and it seems that it is mainly in an attempt to make some other jobs sound better.

Engineering is a profession. Engineering is mainly about design (read the blurb on the civ tech tree!).

Engineering is NOT fixing photocopiers / faxes / computers ('service engineer'). It is NOT filling cars with petrol ('petroleum transfer engineer'), and it most certainly is NOT working in retail ('sales engineer').

Call me elistist, but I get a bit annoyed when the layperson hears my job title and assumes that I either drive a train, or fix cars for a living. Not belittling either of these occupations (I probably couldn't do either of them very well!), but I didn't spend four years at university in order to enter a profession, only to be consistently confused with non-university qualified occupations.

Engineers have comparable skills and training to lawyers (even doctors) and have a professional body / organisation to which they can become chartered (and even struck-off).

Should it be illegal for non-university qualified or non-registered people to call themselves engineers?

 

[Whiskey Priest]

I used to work as a ceramic sanitation engineer (dishwasher) j/k

 

[Jimcat]

"Engineer" is just the buzzword of the moment. Twenty years ago, people were having the same problem with "doctor". Handymen were calling themselves "home doctors" and mechanics were calling themselves "car doctors". Somehow, people still managed to identify the actual doctors when they needed one.

Similarly, if your firm is looking to hire an engineer, they know what they're looking for. If you want a mechanical engineer, you're not going to look at a resume from a "sales engineer". You're going to look for someone with a mechnaical engineering degree, preferably a registered Professional Engineer.

I have titles like "sales engineer" or "solutions engineer" on my resume. I certainly didn't put them there because I claim to be able to do the same things as my friend who has a master's degree in electrical engineering. I put them there because they are recognized terms within my industry. Potential employers will see the words and have a good idea of what I have done. I didn't choose those particular words for the job titles, but I have to speak the language. Sometimes talking the talk is just as important as walking the walk.

All of this relates to a pet peeve of mine: people who are more concerned with what a thing is called than what it is. Names are only labels, and people have the brainpower to interpret different uses of labels. I know the difference between a "sales engineer" and an "electrical engineer", and so do the people who work with them. As long as the word serves as a useful label, why worry about what the word is?

 

[Johnny_c]

I'm in my 3rd year of studying to be an electrical engineer and I would have to say that if you are going to be a practicing enginner you should be accredited in the area in which you are working. I'm not really talking about someone calling their business "Office Engineers" or something where their intent is to be humourous. But I have heard about situations where people who claimed to be engineers really weren't and as a result of their work, people died. The Professional Engineers of Ontario (PEO) have rules and can enforce them against people who are not engineers. I've taken a sample of them here...

Sections 39 and 40 of the Professional Engineers Act give PEO the authority to take action. Section 40(1) sets maximum fines for individuals and firms practising without the necessary licences (P.Eng., and/or C of A). These fines are $25,000 for a first offence and $50,000 for each subsequent offence. Section 40(1) authorizes fines of up to $10,000 for a first offence and $25,000 for each subsequent offence, for people who:

use the title "professional engineer" or an abbreviation or variation as an occupational designation;
use a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or
use a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer.

Those fines have been issued before and are quite serious. Engineers are accountable to a regulatory body for all work they perform. The PEO fulfills the same function as the College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Law Society of Upper Canada.
"Engineer" has become a buzzword and I'm sure it will pass, in the meantime, measures are taken to protect the public from people who may claim to be engineers.

Calling someone a solutions engineer is one of the vaguest terms I've heard in a long time

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by Johnny_c

Calling someone a solutions engineer is one of the vaguest terms I've heard in a long time

Oh, I agree. Like I said, I didn't choose the title. The scary thing is, when headhunters and managers see it on my resume, they act like they know exactly what it means.

My current job title is "business analyst". Just as vague, and just as widely recognized.

 

[CornMaster]

Me!! I should.

Actually....I prefer my current job titles.
President and CEO of CornEmpire Software
Head Programmer of CornEmpire Software
Webmaster of CornEmpire Software ( http://www.angelfire.com/geek/cornempire/iframe.htm )

Of course my real jobs:

Network Administrator
Project Manager
(Soon to be) Webserver Administrator
Head Programmer

And Night Manager at a hotel. (Eventially...I don't like the job...but I'll probably have to take it.)

And can't forget Student.

 

[damunzy]

I was readin up on MCSEs (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) and they sugget that if you are in a location (and I beleive they pointed out part of Canada as an example) that you use just MCSE instead of the full title or MCSExpert.

As to who should be able to use the title Engineer, I am not sure. I think it is foolish to fine someone for using MCSE and having Engineer in it as long as they are not passing themselves off as a Bridge Engineer or some other Engineer where safety of people can be jeapordized.

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
As to who should be able to use the title Engineer, I am not sure. I think it is foolish to fine someone for using MCSE and having Engineer in it as long as they are not passing themselves off as a Bridge Engineer or some other Engineer where safety of people can be jeapordized.

I agree with the above. In the United States at least, you can call yourself anything you want as long as it's not for fraudulent purposes.

I thought that this is why certain professions are licensed: so that if someone calls themselves an engineer, accountant, doctor, lawyer, architect, pharmacist, (etc.... I'm sure there are more) you can check their professional credentials and licensing to be sure you are getting the real thing and not just some bozo with an inflated job title.

CAVEAT EMPTOR is the rule... let the buyer beware!

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Jimcat


Oh, I agree. Like I said, I didn't choose the title. The scary thing is, when headhunters and managers see it on my resume, they act like they know exactly what it means.

My current job title is "business analyst". Just as vague, and just as widely recognized.

You got business analyst too? Isn't it great. I've got a senior in front of mine, but it doesn't mean anything. I was never a junior or regular business analyst, and there are no regular business analysts anywhere else in my department, so its not like I am over anyone. I think my boss just wanted a more prestigeous direct report, so he put in the req. that way.

Analyst in general is a rather mysterious term. We have analysts in our company that don't analyze a damn thing. They may file claims, or process accounts, but as far as rational thought goes, there is none of that involved.

 

[Jimcat]

Yeah, technically I'm a "senior" as well. We have a plain old "business analyst" who's a consultant. But "senior" is another slippery word in business. As far as I can tell, it just means "someone who meets more than the minimum requirements for the position".

 

[Hitro]

I generally think people should focus more on what they actually DO than on what it's called. Who cares if you profession or whatever is called "Stupid Monkey of the Company" as long as its fun and well paid

 

[Magnus]

Welcome to the latest edition of NewSpeak. The bullchip just keeps getting thicker and thicker, as does the fog.

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by Hitro
I generally think people should focus more on what they actually DO than on what it's called. Who cares if you profession or whatever is called "Stupid Monkey of the Company" as long as its fun and well paid

I think the same thing. But then my job title would be something like "The Guy Who Tells the Programmers that the Users are Asking for Impossible Things, and Tells the Users that the Programmers Can't Give Them What They Want", and that'd be kind of hard to fit on a business card.

Hm, maybe "Bearer of Bad News" would cover it.

 

[mrog]

When I started an engineering course some time ago there was talk of a title for engineers.

In the same way that medicos have the honorary title of "Dr" (honorary because most of them are not in fact doctors), engineers would have the title Eng. My recollection is hazy but I think the push for this came from Europe.

I ended up going into science so I'm not up to date on what happened to this idea.

 

[stormerne]

Originally posted by ainwood
Should it be illegal for non-university qualified or non-registered people to call themselves engineers?

No it shouldn't. There are other instances where it is perfectly acceptable to be called 'engineer'. One case that springs to mind is when a person has extensive experience but lacks a degree - indeed there are several chartered bodies who will accept such candidates (but of course people don't have to apply).

One of my job functions as an engineer is to recruit other engineers. I am certain I can pretty much tell the calibre and potential of a job candidate after two or three hours of testing and interviewing. And what I've found is ability doesn't necessarily equate to having some kind of diploma or accreditation. Sure it's a start, but there's no guarantees either way.

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by stormerne

No it shouldn't. There are other instances where it is perfectly acceptable to be called 'engineer'. One case that springs to mind is when a person has extensive experience but lacks a degree - indeed there are several chartered bodies who will accept such candidates (but of course people don't have to apply).

Yes, I should have worded the poll better. I have met and worked with a lot of engineers - some 'qualified' but incompetent, some very good but unqualified.

I think that the registration process is the important bit, as this tends to expose the true abilities (I guess I should make the effort to become registered....). Not every firm can actually assess an engineers competance based on CV alone.

My whole point here is that I feel that the profession is being devalued because we are coming to the point where the lay-person doesn't know what an engineer actually does, due to overuse of the title. By current trends, it would appear that an engineer is simply someone who does something.

 

[stormerne]

I don't think the registration process is the important bit. It hasn't helped me and it hasn't helped me get the best people for my company. It's the evaluation process that counts, and in my experience that isn't the main part of registration. Only good evaluation exposes true abilities.

No one can assess competence from a CV. But a CV never gets you a job - it only gets you to an interview. It is however true that not all companies have people, tests or processes in place to properly assess an engineer's competence when they get to an interview. But that's the company's own stupidity and incompetence, and such companies deserve either to go to the wall or become also-rans.

In England, the lay person has never understood what an engineer is. They think of heavy machinery if they think of design at all, and more often than not they are thinking of a maintenance role. It's several years since the word engineer was in my job title, and nowadays I'm more likely to use words like "IT professional" or "software developer" when introducing myself at a party.

So never fear, and forget about the illusory prestige you imagine should go with the word engineer. The companies that are really worth working for don't give a stuff about what someone calls themselves when they apply for a job. It's what the candidate can do that really counts, and a worthwhile company will make sure that they have the best people working for them, whatever they're called.

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by stormerne
It's several years since the word engineer was in my job title, and nowadays I'm more likely to use words like "IT professional" or "software developer" when introducing myself at a party.

I don't have "engineer" in my job title these days either, but I discovered several years ago that the best way to describe my career at parties was "computer geek". That would usually get one of two replies:

1. "Oh, computers, I don't know a thing about them." (Change the subject)

2. "Me too! So what do you do exactly?" (Begin geeky conversation)

 

[Beam]

Oops, vote anyone!

That is because it is, like many other titles or job descriptions, a highly inflated title. And I agree with Ainwood engineering is a profession and about design and not something about fixing stuff (which requires special skills, please do not misunderstand, and people really good at that, I mean fix it and make sure it does not happen again, are rare species today!)

You probably guessed I am an engineer as well, although my real job title is another inflated one: Consultant. Which is about the same work with more responsibilities, and without the tools to fulfill these responsibilities.

Other inflated jobtitles:
- Account Manager (Salesman)
- Sales Advisor (worse species, car salesman)
- President, with extensions like Vice, Senior, Chief Executive and even worse, combinations of extensions like Senior Chief Executive Vice-President of Ceramic Sanitation (80% change that in thirty years in a 3 star restaurant this will be the job title for a dishwasher )

Anyway, I am allowed the official Dutch Ir. in front of my name and with other Ir. 's this means

 

[bombato]

A true engineer must be certified and authorized to approve plans within the scope of that certificate. They usually get some fancy letters after their name, e.g. P.E. etc.

In addition to all the title inflations and buzz words that are floating about. There is also a major effort for all industries and professions to "elevate" there trades to some professional status (the engineer desigation is really nothing more than that). It's simply a job that requires an education and the title is very important to those people within that sphere, nothing more.

I'm working on professional certification myself (not engineering though) and will soon get to add some letters after my name. It will even mean a lot to me and those in my industry. However, the only time anyone would ever know is if they reviewed my work.

By the way, the majority of engineers I work with are very good at what they do, but they miss the whole point more often than not. Civil engineers aren't "real engineers" despite the designation, are they?