Why are horses so rare now?

I think that what everyone observes is clearly correct, nevermind what it says in the code. We all know that computers don't always follow the code and tend to randomly do things like deny a human player a resource intentionally...
 
Tiberias,your effort is appreciable and the results and indicative but to perform a proffessional test it is necessary to stress both algorythms and routines in a non predictable way,in this way you can have some isolated deletable exceptions but you'll get closer to the real big picture.
 
Yes, I also noticed that how is less horse sources than before. It could be funnier now, but It can be also annoying...
To me seems that now metals and ivory are rarer than before... Several time I played without copper or iron or horses. Also, I can't remember when I last time played with ivory in my borders...

I've rarely started a BTS game where ivory wasn't so abundant that it nerfed itself! lol. It's no use when everyone brings stacks armed with war elephants instead of other mounted units! lol
 
I think that what everyone observes is clearly correct, nevermind what it says in the code. We all know that computers don't always follow the code and tend to randomly do things like deny a human player a resource intentionally...

everyone hasn't observed this. Out of the hundreds of people who view this forum every day, who do you think is most likely to check this thread? People who haven't had a lot of horses in their recent games. Those people who have had lots of horses in their recent games are much more likely to skip over it.

The way random numbers works means there will always be lots of people viewing this forum who have had fewer than average number of horses (or coal, or oil, etc.) in their recent games. Add to that the fact that people tend to remember those games more strongly, and you will always have many people who think its true at any one time. So you can expect threads like this to pop up regularly, especially after a new patch or expansion, as everyone thinks that must be why they got a low number in the random number generator for a handful of games.
 
Well, it seems semantics are the basis for your argument, but your point is correct. The "ghost in the machine" theory seems a little thin. It's all in the coding of the game. I personally have had fewer horses in all my BTS games than my Warlords games, but I put that to chance.
 
Tiberias,your effort is appreciable and the results and indicative but to perform a proffessional test it is necessary to stress both algorythms and routines in a non predictable way,in this way you can have some isolated deletable exceptions but you'll get closer to the real big picture.

My little test was admittedly completely unscientific--I mean, I didn't even use the statistically significant minimum of thirty samples, didn't establish a margin of error, etc. :blush:

I'm still a little curious as to whether it's more likely or not to have critical resources in the starting square; I may give that a quick, unscientific test as well.
 
everyone hasn't observed this. Out of the hundreds of people who view this forum every day, who do you think is most likely to check this thread? People who haven't had a lot of horses in their recent games. Those people who have had lots of horses in their recent games are much more likely to skip over it.

The way random numbers works means there will always be lots of people viewing this forum who have had fewer than average number of horses (or coal, or oil, etc.) in their recent games. Add to that the fact that people tend to remember those games more strongly, and you will always have many people who think its true at any one time. So you can expect threads like this to pop up regularly, especially after a new patch or expansion, as everyone thinks that must be why they got a low number in the random number generator for a handful of games.

Hehe you should re-read my post with your sarcasm detector turned up a bit... I was being facetious :).
 
OK, I ran a test to look closer at starting square resources. I used the same setup as before, and was careful to make sure both were at Noble difficulty. End result: under Civ4, two starts had Horses, two starts had Copper, and one start had Iron (out of five starts). Under Beyond the Sword, two starts had Horses, and one start had Copper. My conclusion: well, first, it's not a statistically sound study, BUT my guess is that there's no significant difference. Anybody who's complaining they "never" get Horses and/or Copper is probably just having an unlucky streak.

There may be one factor, however. Beyond the Sword may be slightly more favorable toward food resources than production resources. I seemed to see more food bonuses in the BtS starts than production bonuses, and vice versa in Civ4 "Vanilla". I can't really quantify it, however. One thing that does appear likely is that the code does take "hidden" resources into account when determining starting positions--in both cases, the starting square had a lot of resources, both visible (Clams Fish etc.) and not yet revealed (Coal Uranium etc.)

One more factor to consider. I believe that the game takes difficulty into account when determining starting position. It's something like the game placing a number of AIs before placing the player, depending on difficulty--on high difficulties, the human is the last player placed. If you're complaining about your start position, it could be related to the fact that you've moved up to a higher level and weren't aware of that factor. And, of course, if you played Civ4 "Vanilla" at Settler but you're now working on Prince, that may partially explain why you're seeing fewer good resources nearby.

Or Firaxis could have secret code that reads your username and gives you a lousy start position if you're someone who does a lot of complaining on the forums. :scan:
 
One thing that has been overlooked in this thread is the start spot selection and beautification code.

I've understood the starting location is, once selected, modified so that eg. tundra and desert (and ice or other bad terrains) are changed to plains, grassland, or floodplains overlay added (or otherwise changed to good terrain), possible fresh water added as river, lake, or oasis, and so on. This could add resources as well, and it seems possible to me that the Vanilla and Warlords beautifiers have had higher chance of adding early strategic resource (copper, iron, horse) than BTS version.

I don't know the specifics of this code, and it may well be different based on mapscript - maybe mapscript contains part of the code. Maybe it's worth checking?
 
Last night I tried a few marathon games on a tiny oasis map as Darius against some other ancient near-east civs (four rivals jammed into the small map). 4 times in a row I started at the bottom of the map and there were only 4 horses - in two groups of two at the top of the map! I wanted to try out some immortal rushes, and I even tried extending my empire across the map quickly to claim those horses, but I could never get it to work. Anyway, I gave up and tried a standard pangea w/ Darius and sure enough there were horses right outside my starting city, just waiting for me!
 
We all know that computers don't always follow the code and tend to randomly do things like deny a human player a resource intentionally...

Computers have no choice but to follow the code, that's how they work. Or do you think that your system just suddenly developed independant conciousness and decided to mess with your Civ game?
 
Computers have no choice but to follow the code, that's how they work. Or do you think that your system just suddenly developed independant conciousness and decided to mess with your Civ game?

I didn't think anyone would seriously say something like that, but I probably just have less experience on these boards than you :).

Edit: I even wrote that the computer was "denying a human player a resource intentionally."
 
I didn't think anyone would seriously say something like that, but I probably just have less experience on these boards than you :).

Edit: I even wrote that the computer was "denying a human player a resource intentionally."

Yeah well, it was first thing in the morning and I hadn't even had my first cup of coffee yet. And I've seen so many people on these forums posting such outrageous things that I just presumed it was one more example. Next time try using a smilie to reinforce your tongue in cheek posts.
 
I can't see how bonus appearance would be any different between BTS and vanilla. I have no civ4bonusinfos.xml in my /BTS/.../XML/ folder -- but I do have it in my 'main' civ folder - I've edited, so I guess I can't guarantee it's from the vanilla install, but I'm assuming that this file wasn't modified by BTS and as such, BTS is actually using the civ4 vanilla version.

I suppose there might be factors or equations in the BTS code that could affect bonus placement, but I would wonder what the point of that would be since the XML file alone already has like 3 or 4 different elements affecting resource placement and frequency (i.e., if there was a firaxis desire to change resource frequency, it would have been much easier to just tweak factors in the XML than change the code itself, unless there was fundamental level of change).
 
At some point I might have agreed with horse/copper rarity, but after this thread appeared I've paid some more attention to the issue and concluded that it's all good and normal - horses and copper appear wherever they do just like before.

I think some resources cluster more than I've noticed before, but that might be issue of map type - Big'n'small didn't exist in Warlords yet.

I still point to the starting point beautification code. IIRC Blake reworked that completely during BetterAI development as it was for some reason mingled with AI code. I don't know how things are in BTS, but it seems to me that BTS starting spot beautifier is different from Warlords (without BetterAI at least). This MAY have some effect on apparent resource issues. Might. Maybe. Or not.
 
I can't see how bonus appearance would be any different between BTS and vanilla. I have no civ4bonusinfos.xml in my /BTS/.../XML/ folder -- but I do have it in my 'main' civ folder - I've edited, so I guess I can't guarantee it's from the vanilla install, but I'm assuming that this file wasn't modified by BTS and as such, BTS is actually using the civ4 vanilla version.

No, it's actually using the one from Warlords. There was a minor change in that version, an extra line was added though I'm not sure which one right now. BtS is also using the Warlords version of the map creation code which does the actual placement of resources, using the quantity value from the bonus file.
 
I still point to the starting point beautification code. IIRC Blake reworked that completely during BetterAI development as it was for some reason mingled with AI code. I don't know how things are in BTS, but it seems to me that BTS starting spot beautifier is different from Warlords (without BetterAI at least). This MAY have some effect on apparent resource issues. Might. Maybe. Or not.

Blake's changes only affected food resources however, he did nothing about strategic or luxury ones. He mainly wanted to balance things out a bit more so people didn't end up with a scad of seafood resources to start with.
 
I give up! Now I know how Columbus felt when he tried to prove the world was round. :rolleyes:

Think at it this way: ppl post on forums when they have a problem, when they want to complain and seek for acknowledgment and others to share their complaints with. There's a proverb in Italy that says "Common bad, half good". Well, I can't really translate it.
Anyways, look up at the total number of civfanatics, or simply think about what must be the total active members, and subtract from that number the number of ppl who posted in this thread saying they noticed less horses in BtS. Simple math afer which you'll know how alone in your thoughts you really are ;)
 
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